|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
70.46.7.90
In Reply to: What's a "Rationalist"? posted by kerr on April 2, 2007 at 09:02:19:
Hi Kerr,You had it right before, "rational subjectivists" show a healthy skepticism for a lot of the tweakier items out there but that trust in their ears and "rational objectivists" believe in measurements but also know that science cannot explain everything.
Pat D is just doing his best to obfuscate the topic. Even when I wrote from a neutral postion labeling both some objectivists & some subjectivists as irrational, he found something to disagree with! But then again that's all Pat D ever does anyway, disagree with anything a subjectivist says.
Follow Ups:
TG54
"that's all Pat D ever does anyway, disagree with anything a subjectivist says."Of course, you're position is contradictory. You've tried to maintain that I have no fixed opinions, and if that were true, I could never be able to identify subjectivists so as to be able to controvert them. Well, as Aristotle pointed out, once you introduce a contradiction into your reasoning, you can "prove" anything at all, contradictories included.
As well, it cannot possibly be ""all that I "ever" do, as I have to do lots of other things just to survive. I eat, sleep, shower, shop, bank, talk to my wife, clean, wash dishes, listen to music, rehearse and perform music, do vocal exercises, and lots of other things.
____________________________________________________
"Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.
TG1954 - "that's all Pat D ever does anyway, disagree with anything a subjectivist says."Pat D-Cake - It cannot possibly be ""all that I "ever" do, as I have to do lots of other things just to survive. I eat, sleep, shower, shop, bank, talk to my wife, clean, wash dishes, listen to music, rehearse and perform music, do vocal exercises, and lots of other things.
TG1954 - Ok I'll reword this one to: that's all Pat D-Cake ever does on PHP anyway, disagree with anything a subjectivist says. I keep forgetting that you need the obvious explained to you, I'm sorry Pat D-Cake I'll try to dumb down what I say so you'll comprehend it better in the future. I guess I gave you credit for more than the little intelligence you typically display here.
1) ANY component whos sound I speak about is always when used in a system. I realize that NO audio component works by itself, apparently you need that explained to you.
2) Specifications are USUALLY a result of a measurement being taken when speaking about audio specifications. But because there are different types of specifications and you need the obvious explained over & over I say USUALLY because there's also some others like:
a) Maintenance Specifications.
b) Materials Specifications.
c) Operation Specifications.
d) Design Specifications.3) When I speak about something you, Pat D-Cake I'm refering to when you're here on PHP. I personally don't give a horses pa-toot what you do or say elsewhere in your life. In fact the thought of you showering was a lot more info than I needed or cared to hear about.
Hopefully you won't require the blatantly obvious to be explained to you many more times....
Thetubeguy1954
"If you thought that science was certain - well, that is just an error on your part." Richard Feynman theoretical physicist, 1918-1988
TG54
"1) ANY component whos sound I speak about is always when used in a system. I realize that NO audio component works by itself, apparently you need that explained to you."No, I don't need that explained to me. Why don't you modify your language to take account of that? Instead, you claim your tube amplifier is "world class" and concretely you take a suggestion it might not work so well with some other speakers as a dastardly slur upon it.
YOu even want to define the amplifier's accuracy by how well it sounds in your system! This deprives the concept of accuracy of any definite meaning, since your tube amp may not so good with other speakers.
TG54
"2) Specifications are USUALLY a result of a measurement being taken when speaking about audio specifications."They may or may not be related to measurements. In any case, they are not the same as measurements as a spec is a performance standard. For example, a distortion spec of .15% states that the distortion under specified conditions will not exceed that, and those conditions are regulated for US advertising. It is quite possible the amp will do better than that. As well, in the US, if an amplifier is claimed to be able to put out X watts continuous power over a frequency range of A-B into a load impedence of Y then it is supposed to be able to do that. Unlike THD, this can often be of some use.
Now, speaker specs often seem not to be based on measurements. A speaker may be said to have a frequency response extending to, say, 30 Hz, but there is no guarantee it will actually have any useful response that low. Now, there are some manufacturers whose LF extension specs seem honest as they come out close to what the measurements done by the NRC (Soundstage), Stereophile, or AIG indicate, but others do not. Sensitivity is another spec--but there is really no standard way of measuring it to which they must adhere, and as well, some manufacturers grossly exaggerate it. Adn unless it is extremely tight, an FR spec really doesn't indicate much about how a speaker will sound.
On the other hand, speaker measurents done by the NRC, Stereophile, and AIG can be quite useful. Frequency response and dispersion measurements can be quite helpful for those who have some idea what they like or don't like.
____________________________________________________
"Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.
TG1954 - ANY component whos sound I speak about is always when used in a system. I realize that NO audio component works by itself, apparently you need that explained to you.Pat D-Cake - No, I don't need that explained to me. Why don't you modify your language to take account of that? Instead, you claim your tube amplifier is "world class" and concretely you take a suggestion it might not work so well with some other speakers as a dastardly slur upon it.
TG1954 - Apparently you DO need that explained to you Pat D-Cake. Otherwise you wouldn't require modifing my language to take account of that, when it's just an obvious fact! You're 100% correct that I know that my amp is "WORLD-CLASS". However your comment that I concretely take the suggestion that it might not work so well with some other speakers as a dastardly slur upon it, is something you simply made up and cannot provide any evidence I've ever said anything like that. Even if it wasn't an SET that fact that it only has 40W/ch would surely reveal to anyone with a real knowledge about audio equipment that the Mastersound will not work with all speakers. Surely you realize Pat D-Cake that any system is only as good as it weakest link. The Mastersound used with the right ancillary components is a "WORLD-CLASS" amp. A QSC on the other hand no matter how good the other components are would never sound like a "WORLD-CLASS" amp! So even though both are used in a system, one can determine how good the individual components are, or haven't you developed that skill as of yet?
==================================================================
Pat D-Cake - You even want to define the amplifier's accuracy by how well it sounds in your system! This deprives the concept of accuracy of any definite meaning, since your tube amp may not so good with other speakers.TG1954 - Once you learn how to deteremine the sound of individual components in the confines of a system you'll see the problem with your statement.
===================================================================
TG1954 - Specifications are USUALLY a result of a measurement being taken when speaking about audio specifications."Pat D-Cake They may or may not be related to measurements. In any case, they are not the same as measurements as a spec is a performance standard. For example, a distortion spec of .15% states that the distortion under specified conditions will not exceed that, and those conditions are regulated for US advertising. It is quite possible the amp will do better than that. As well, in the US, if an amplifier is claimed to be able to put out X watts continuous power over a frequency range of A-B into a load impedence of Y then it is supposed to be able to do that. Unlike THD, this can often be of some use.
TG1954 - I addressed this yesterday Pat D-Cake, I mentioned there are other types of specs, granted I didn't list everyone, but I proved I knew others existed. I've already told you that specifications are USUALLY (that means not always -- so I don't see why you're pointing out the obvious) a result of a measurement being taken when speaking about audio specifications. But because there are different types of specifications and you need the obvious explained over & over I say USUALLY because there's also some others like:
a) Maintenance Specifications.
b) Materials Specifications.
c) Operation Specifications.
d) Design Specifications.If we take your example of: a distortion spec of .15% states that the distortion under specified conditions will not exceed that, while true can also be viewed as a measurement spec as well. Remember I stated: "a measurement is the estimation of a quantity such as distortion, length, excursion, temperature, time etc. Measurements find the ratio of some quantity to a standard quantity of the same type..." thus in your example a measurement of the distortion of an amplifier is the ratio of the actual distortion of the amplifier to a standard of 0% distortion. Measurements are usually given in terms of a real number times a unit of measurement, for example .15%. In this case the .15% distortion is the specification the measurement provided. So it can be both a measurement spec and a performance spec.
This is just you once again attempting to shift the topic from what it is to what you want it to be in an effort to appear correct at all costs!
===================================================================
Pat D-Cake - Now, speaker specs often seem not to be based on measurements. A speaker may be said to have a frequency response extending to, say, 30 Hz, but there is no guarantee it will actually have any useful response that low. Now, there are some manufacturers whose LF extension specs seem honest as they come out close to what the measurements done by the NRC (Soundstage), Stereophile, or AIG indicate, but others do not. Sensitivity is another spec--but there is really no standard way of measuring it to which they must adhere, and as well, some manufacturers grossly exaggerate it. Adn unless it is extremely tight, an FR spec really doesn't indicate much about how a speaker will sound.TG1954 - As usual we disagree. Here's just one spec of a speaker...
Frequency Response: 15-35 kHz, +/- 2 dB, 13 Hz-100 kHz -6 dB, (+/- 1dB at mid band). To me this is a measurement Pat D-Cake. It measures against DC to whatever upper limit one choices to use. Just because there's no standard accepted measurement for this doesn't mean it isn't a measurement. This also serves to fortify my postion that today's ACCEPTED measurements don't correlate with what we hear, because there is no accpted standard in many cases, this cases the measurements and the specification they provide to be useless to us! Personally I think speakers should be measured against 0 - 100Khz. It also measures the deviation from flat frequency response +/- 2 dB when 15-35Khz is the standard and -6 dB when 13-100Khz is the standard. I agree with you that a (not an) FR spec really doesn't indicate much about how a speaker will sound. But that just further illuminates my statement as being true.
Thetubeguy1954
"If you thought that science was certain - well, that is just an error on your part." Richard Feynman theoretical physicist, 1918-1988
Sorry, the specification is a standard, not a measurement. Someone might formulate a specification with a knowledge of measurements that were done, or it might just be advertising copy. It is itself a standard. Now, if someone measures the speaker, they could see whether it meets or exceeds the specification or not.http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/specification
____________________________________________________
"Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.
Pat D-Cake,I can see we've reached the point where you'll continue on desperately needing to be correct and striving to have the last word. When you get like this there's no possible way to have an intelligent conversation with you. You're next move after this is to start continually twisting the truth and then outright ly#*@. So I'm going to stop wasting my time on this subject with you. As I've stated numerous times you have absolutely NOTHING of value to offer me. So go ahead, have the last word, thump your chest like an ape and feel like you've won the arguement, but at the very least don't lie to yourself. Simply realize you've won nothing, but have succeeded in wearing me down. It's a waste of my time talking with you any further and I have better things to do than repeat the same thing over & over again....
Pat D-Cake, Pat D-Cake faker man,
Create an excuse as fast as you can.
Roll it, pat it, mark it with a B (for Bullsh!t)
Post on PHP for Polly and thee.Bye, bye either make like nature & hide or go waste someone else's time.
Thetubeguy1954
"If you thought that science was certain - well, that is just an error on your part." Richard Feynman theoretical physicist, 1918-1988
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: