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24.46.25.16
In Reply to: How Do We Have A Technical Conversation When We Have So Many Vocal Unrational Objectivists & Unrational Subjectivists? posted by thetubeguy1954 on March 29, 2007 at 11:08:36:
It doesn't matter what side of the fence you are on. We can't get away from the fact we hear with our brains not our ears. We may never get a set of measurements that completely corelates with what we "hear".
Follow Ups:
Robert,You stated that we can't get away from the fact we hear with our brains not our ears. That's why I always say ear/brain when refering to how we hear. I agree that we may never get a set of measurements that completely corelates with what we "hear", but certainly hope that scientists or audio manufacturers will attempt to discover what traits about live music the ear/brain uses to determine it's live and not recorded.
Thetubeguy1954
"If you thought that science was certain - well, that is just an error on your part." Richard Feynman theoretical physicist, 1918-1988
From Robert Hamel.
> > "It doesn't matter what side of the fence you are on. We can't get away from the fact we hear with our brains not our ears. We may never get a set of measurements that completely corelates with what we "hear". < <From thetubeguy
> > "For Example: I believe it's quite apparent that today's accepted audio measurements do NOT correlate with what we hear." < <From KlausR.
> > "Sorry, but that's rubbish. Human hearing responds to sound pressure." < <No wonder we cannot make progress if we have people like KlausR calling what thetubeguy and Robert Hamel said as "Rubbish". If so called intelligent people cannot realise that sound does NOT stop at the "ear drum" (i.e. Simply picking up air pressure waves like the diaphragm of a microphone) then we will never make progress !!
"Sound Information" is what is carried through the entire hearing mechanism to be eventually identified by the 'working memory' - which, from it's store of acquired information over many years, it then attempts to create a 'sound picture' to present to the brain.In an earlier 'thread' about the Clever Little Clock, someone replied that "if the Clever Little Clock is not affecting the audio signal going through the equipment and is not affecting the acoustic air pressures in the room, then it cannot be doing anything !!"
Obviously, in this person's mind, there is no living, breathing, coughing, sneezing, reacting human being anywhere in his equation !! In this person's mind there is only the audio signal and the room's acoustic air pressure waves. In KlausR's mind there is, yes, a human being, but KlausR's human being just has passive ear drums - which are merely physically reacting to whatever air pressure waves reach them. Even Jim Austin acknowledges that there is a human being involved, and Jim also acknowledges that there could be changes taking place to the 'sound information' inside the head but Jim INSISTS that these changes, inside the head, MUST ONLY occur because of "suggestion, the placebo effect, imagination, mood changes, audio faith healing or effective marketing" whereas I strongly suggest that changes to the 'sound information' inside the head are primarily because of external influences. External influences which we are programmed by Nature to take notice of. I.e. What is going on in our environment.I am going to be outrageously simplistic - not to insult people's intelligence but merely to make a point !!
If the working memory has never known what middle C on the piano sounds like, then it cannot identify if someone hits, by mistake, the note next to middle C (i.e. D). If the working memory knows what middle C on the piano sounds like, then it will 'cringe' if someone accidentally hits the D note instead of middle C. In other words, it is what the 'working memory' identifies which is the SOUND. What is happening with the working memory has NOTHING whatsoever to do with "suggestion, the placebo effect, imagination, mood changes, or effective marketing" !!! It happens - no con man - no charlatan involved !!Again, simplistically. Say there is information on a CD of Wagner's Tannhauser - and this information contains all the information to do with height information, depth, width, instrument separation and so on. I will use a technique I have used often to illustrate what I mean. Say, there is the information ABC through to XYZ (containing all the information I have just described) on the CD and this information ABC through to XYZ is handled perfectly adequately by the audio system and is presented into the room, quite adequately by the loudspeakers. And, this (now acoustic) information ABC through to XYZ reaches the human ear drum.
This seems to be what KlausR and, (it seems), many other people believe is THE SOUND.
Supposing the information ABC through to XYZ is also handled perfectly OK by the outer ear, the middle and the inner ear and reaches the start of the auditory nerve STILL intact as information ABC through to XYZ. But, supposing now that this information, as it is being transported along the auditory nerve by electro chemicals (positive and negative ions), is 'interferred with' by other (active in the brain) chemicals and only the information ABC through to MNO actually reaches the working memory intact - then THAT information ABC through to MNO is THE SOUND - is now the actual the information which the working memory has to work with - to create a 'sound picture' from !!! It is NO LONGER the original information ABC through to XYZ which was there at the beginning of the journey.
In other words, there is so much more going on regarding what we all recognise as SOUND.
Yes, there could quite easily be enough information for the working memory to identify the music as Wagner's Tannhauser but there may not be sufficient information remaining to identify height, depth, width and instrument separation etc !!!Change the conditions which are causing these (active in the brain) chemicals so that they do not have such an adverse effect on the electro chemicals transporting the information along the auditory nerve, you allow more of the remaining MNO through to XYZ information to reach the working memory, which in turn can then identify more of the height, depth, width and separation of instruments etc information - to create an even BETTER 'sound picture' !!
Co-inciding with people's own experiences yet ????
Now, such as Jim Austin would agree that, yes, there could be active chemicals, in the brain, which can interfere with the electro-chemicals carrying the 'sound' information but he is adamant that these 'active chemicals' can ONLY be created by 'suggestion, the placebo effect, imagination, mood changes, audio faith healing or effective marketing" !! Such an argument, if people have had it suggested to them that certain things COULD improve the sound, appears quite feasible. It is when people are NOT aware that any changes in the sound could or should take place, have NOT had it suggested to them, are NOT expecting something to happen is where the difficulty is in believing that it can ONLY be "suggestion etc" at work !! If nothing had been suggested, if nothing was expected to happen, then none of these 'active chemicals', surely, would have been produced ? That is where the explanation regarding "suggestion, the placebo effect, imagination, mood changes, effective marketing" falls down. And, if you are without an adequate explanation for something you have observed or the explanation you had before no longer holds water, then you have to SEARCH for another explanation !!
On the subject of a "special lacquer" Jim Austin said that he "would be stunned" if he heard a lacquer, applied to a speaker cabinet, improve the sound !! So, if Jim (or anyone else) after applying a certain lacquer suddenly HEARD the information regarding height, depth, width, separation of instruments when he definitely was NOT expecting it, then the explanation cannot possibly be because of "suggestion, the placebo effect, imagination, mood changes, audio faith healing, effective marketing - or the new one which Jim has come up with i.e "Virgin piss" !!!!!!
All the usual arguments regarding circuit design, electronic components, technical this, technical that - all apply. Nothing here has changed. Concerns around acoustic this and acoustic that - all apply. The question is what percentage of importance are we going to place on what ?
If it is better and better 'sound' you are looking for, greater and greater pleasure from listening to music, then you have to consider many possibilities - and the narrow, blinkered "we MUST have measurements as proof, or we MUST have double blind trials as proof, it MUST be 'peer group reviewed' before it can even be considered is far too limiting.
Experimentation is the best way forward and it does not have to be expensive either, it can actually be done at no cost !!
Regards,
May Belt.
Anyone else spotting a trend here? Something really tweeks people.
What about 'snake oil' ? I haven't seen any of that around lately. ;-)
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