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In Reply to: Well Andy, here goes... posted by Wellfed on March 23, 2007 at 12:46:40:
> Well Andy, here goes...I have told you repeatedly I am not interested in emails and suggested you write up a complete record like Kramers and post it somewhere to help get it out of your system. You have done exactly the opposite. Your irrational behaviour is exactly the same chatting to me as it was when dealing with JREF. I can only repeat my suggestion that you talk to someone you trust in your family to help with your confusion.
I had intended to read the top and tail and skip the emails but I read them. They seem to indicate the opposite to what you want to believe and again I can only suggest talking with someone you trust.
> These proposals involved me, and others, supervising the treatment of discs
> down JREF way and me returning home to identify the condition of each disc,
> treated or untreated. These proposals never garnered anything but criticism
> from Kramer so I stopped pursuing the matter.Do you inhabit the same planet as the rest of mankind? JREF requires you to submit a proposal, fix the one or two points where they think you may be able to cheat and then to sit the test in a few weeks time. Everything else is a big red flag indicating that it is not going to happen. They have no interest in you as a person and no interest in getting involved with your magic rituals.
> He asked me to email him a copy of the Steven Howard proposal and I agreed. I
> thought it funny at the time that he didn’t just go retrieve it from the Forum
> for himself, but what the hay, no problem.Do you inhabit the same planet as the rest of mankind? JREF requires you to submit a proposal. Nobody can submit one for you. You have now, at last, responded to their request for a revised proposal addressing their issues with the first. This is tangible progress. Only a lunatic would not agree with their own submitted proposal.
> He posted this KNOWING full well that June testing was not “fine” with me as
> witnessed by this correspondence earlier the SAME day.There is nothing you posted to suggest this. JREFs actions suggest the opposite: an exchange where you said things that moved the test from being off as far JREF were concerned to being on. You put forward dates in June and August. They started working to the June dates and then you started to say no not the dates in June I gave but the ones in August. There can be only one way to read this. I repeat again: get someone you trust to talk to you about it.
> If this was ‘entertainment’ for JREF, what does it tell you about the integrity of the
> Randi Challenge? I grant you that much of the confusion seems to stem from sceptic
> expectations being conditioned by previous claimant’s behavior and actions.For the people of JREF (Kramer and Randi) you were an annoying waste of time. What they wanted was for you to take the test and, hopefully, agree afterwards that it was fair. Your entertainment value was almost certainly zero.
For the posters on the JREFs threads there was a significant element of entertainment just as chatting here involves a significant element of entertainment. In addition, you drew interest because your behaviour was not typical of audiophiles/dowsers/flat-earthers/... that hold incorrect beliefs about matters in the scientific domain. Most are self confident and ignorant like the overwhelming majority of 'subjectivists' you see posting on this site. Most ordinary people find it hard to have much sympathy for such individuals and much as I would like to think parts of my recent exchanges with the likes of Morricab, Kerr and E-stat was just winding them up the truth is probably a bit more uncomfortable and I will soon stop posting because of it.
> If you are still interested in reviewing the facts, I will address Kramer’s next move, the
> submission of the Steven Howard protocol to James Randi for approval without amendment.
> Let me know if you have any interest in hearing the details regarding this gem of a Kramer
> ‘facilitation’.My interest is the same as it has always been in this thread, what I have repeatedly told you it is and what you have repeatedly ignored. You have a problem. Do something positive about it like talking to someone you trust or writing up the whole thing. Complaining about it in posts here is going to get you nowhere whether you get a sympathetic or an unsympathetic response.
I will answer any questions you have on the contents of this post if you have any but after that I would like to draw this thread to a close.
Follow Ups:
You're about as attentive as Kramer. And about as intellectually honest to boot. Not good in either case.First off, the proposal involving June dates was dismissed out of hand by JREF. It involved protocol elements completely different from my original and final proposals and the June element was simply the time proposed for preparation of discs while I would happen to be in Florida where JREF is located. It was NOT a proposed test date.
Also note, this option was submitted AFTER I had requested that my testing occur on, or after, August 1, 2005 and was never officially submitted. It was simply offered as an alternative and was NEVER taken seriously by JREF. Also, JREF NEVER even hinted that they thought a June test date was my desire because of this alternative proposal offer.
"There can be only one way to read this."
What a joke of a response.
Consider our discussion closed. If you'd ever like to review the matter in an objective, attentive, and honest manner, just let me know.
I read a lot of this brouhaha over the GSIC test on the JREF forum. It was educational to see just what an applicant has to put up with. What this has proven is that the JREF is a SCAM and a JOKE. It's a group of agenda-pushing zealots who insist on believing the world is flat. But they'll dangle a million dollar carrot and say "if you claim otherwise, prove it by walking the circumference of the earth, and then coming around behind.""Of course, before you do that, you gotta come up with a protocol we approve of. Good luck with that! 'Cos if we decide we simply don't like the **tone of your voice** during this process, out you go! And if you're foolish enough to accept the protocols that we approve of which puts the entire process in our favour? No problem, we'll mess you up when we get to the testing part!"
The JREF crew threw out more BS excuses to dismiss Wellfed's application (ie. "oh, now yer waffling!") than I could have ever possibly imagined. There's a reason why no one is able to come close to going through the extremely convoluted process of having a protocol accepted by Kramer and the JREF crew, and meeting the final test requirements. The reason is the JREF scammers have no intention of ever letting you do that. Why if they did, God forbid, you might actually win their "million dollar carrot". Assuming it even exists.
So negotiating in bad faith with applicants is how they protect their organization from going bust, both financially and ideologically. While they "pretend" to be accomodating to your application, just so they can make it all "look good" to the world, when they have no intention of ever allowing you to come close to their golden carrot. The whole "million dollar JREF" affair is no more than a carnival sideshow. There's no mistake that James Randi knows a lot about frauds and fakers. And that he's learned from them how to be one.
I've never seen anyone in our hobby more reasonable, pacific and appeasing than Wellfed, from all I've read. Even after the fact, after seeing and knowing that they dealt with him dishonestly and in bad faith, he's still writing things like "I grant you that much of the confusion seems to stem from sceptic expectations being conditioned by previous claimant’s behavior and actions". Yet they BANNED him from their forums anyway! You can't even criticize the JREF zealots on their forums, and point out what deceitful fraudsters they are, because they'll ban you and delete your messages. It's like trying to criticize Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly on their own shows. In fact there's a stronger connection to that, because they are the scientific community's "right wing extremist blowhards" One can see from every message on their forums (that are not from applicants), that this is an organization of intellectually dishonest pathological disbelievers who seriously need to get lives and do something productive for society. They do far more harm to science and progress than the good they think they are doing.
Having conversed with Wellfed over a period of days it became clear that he was irrational, no actual communication was taking place despite my prodding and the thread was stopped from my end. You will notice exactly the same thing happened in thread above with clifff. It also happened on JREF but over a longer period. I would suggest you are not doing him any favours by encouraging his problem.JREF is not a scam. The rules are clear but Wellfed did not to address them and instead wandered off with irrelevant concerns of his own.
JREF is not science. It is show business with a scientific flavour. If you do not like the show then turn over and watch the other side.
The Randi Challenge is baloney, plain and simple. If it wasn't, why would Kramer lie about not having contact with an applicant since the previous week when he had, in fact, responded to contact from that applicant the previous day? A most curious bunch of deception Andy. More curious yet, you guys can't see it, or it doesn't seem to bother you. What's the dealio? Talk about irrational, Kramer offers up deception after deception and you can neither see it OR care?Can't converse with me? Let's see how you and Posey fare on this topic. Now THAT would be entertainment.
BTW, you're the guy with the problem, and a serious one at that, believing a sick puppy like Kramer is NOT a healthy proposition. Don't believe me? Take on Posey. I fully expect you will stick your head between your legs and waddle off.
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