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In Reply to: Boyk and Cheever papers shot down... posted by theaudiohobby on March 18, 2007 at 18:42:09:
So did you win any money in Vegas? There had to be a reason for your apparent jubilation....
Follow Ups:
"There had to be a reason for your apparent jubilation...."Certainly, the basis of both papers of both papers were undermined by the baxandall more complete and accurate treatment of the subject. Now we can move on to key reasons, validated by measurements , why many amplifiers (especially those of little or zero feedback variety sound different) which is frequency non-linearity as a result of high output impedance and/or low input impedance.
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
but my English is fairly strong. So what the h@!! does this sentence mean??!??"Now we can move on to key reasons, validated by measurements , why many amplifiers (especially those of little or zero feedback variety sound different) which is frequency non-linearity as a result of high output impedance and/or low input impedance."
I can't even map the object-verb-subject diagram for this one....
'Now we can move on to discuss the main reasons why many amplifiers (especially those with little or no feedback) sound different. These reasons include measured non-linear frequency response caused by high output impedance and low input impedance.'["Now we can move on to key reasons, validated by measurements , why many amplifiers (especially those of little or zero feedback variety sound different) which is frequency non-linearity as a result of high output impedance and/or low input impedance."]
Since low input impedance is not required by absence of global feedback, this appears to be a non sequitur.
The observation regarding high output impedance avoids the question of the output impedance of the amplifier used in the development of the speaker. Amplifiers with low output impedance do sound 'different' (and wrong) on speakers that were designed for and developed with amplifiers that have high output impedance.
"Since low input impedance is not required by absence of global feedback, this appears to be a non sequitur."The issue being discussed was amplifier nonlinearity not global feedback.
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
which makes the connection.Why do you think amplifier nonlinearity is caused by low input impedance, whether or not you believe the low input impedance is related to presence or absence of feedback?
"Why do you think amplifier nonlinearity is caused by low input impedance, "Whoever said so, amplifier linearities is certain affected by low input impedance.
"whether or not you believe the low input impedance is related to presence or absence of feedback"
Firstly, I did not make any comments about low input impedance being affected by feedback, my precise comments were
"Now we can move on to key reasons, validated by measurements , why many amplifiers (especially those of little or zero feedback variety sound different) which is frequency non-linearity as a result of high output impedance and/or low input impedance."
i.e.
"Now we can move on to key reasons, validated by measurements frequency non-linearity as a result of high output impedance and/or low input impedance."
Apologies for speedwriting....it is self-evident that feedback does not affect the input impedance but input impedance affects the amplifier's linearity, because the amplifier becomes more sensitive to the preceeding components output impedance and its connecting cable.
Your garbled post left room for doubt which you have now removed."...it is self-evident that feedback does not affect the input impedance but input impedance affects the amplifier's linearity, because the amplifier becomes more sensitive to the preceeding components output impedance and its connecting cable."
This is simply wrong. The amplifier neither knows nor cares about the upstream component's ouput impedance, or the connecting cable's electrical properties. It responds to the voltage present at its input terminal. Amplifier linearity is an internal property of the amplifier as connected to its load impedance.
The amplifier's input impedance determines the relationship of input current to the input voltage. It is the upstream component's output impedance that determines whether the input voltage suffers distortion from the current requirement. Similarly, it is the upstream component's output impedance that determines whether cable dielectric properties will seriously affect distortion of the input voltage to the amplifier.
It is important to know the amplifier's input impedance in order to select a compatible source component. An amplifier with a low input impedance will burden a source with a high output impedance, such as a plate-loaded triode stage as found in some BAT gear. The resulting sound will be less satisfactory, but that is because the source component was not a good match to the amplifier, not because the amplifier is somehow more nonlinear.
The resulting sound will be less satisfactory, but that is because the source component was not a good match to the amplifier, not because the amplifier is somehow more nonlinearYou are obviously a lot more confused that I am, I clearly stated in a preceeding post on this thread that I was interested in "frequency non-linearity as a result of high output impedance and/or low input impedance."
Frequency nonlinearity is affected by the input and output impedances under specific circumstances not as a result of the amplifier's inherent nonlinearity (I never stated otherwise) but as result of intereaction between the amplfier in question and other devices, so your text is convoluted and rather pointless in respect of the original point.
If the input impedance is low wrt the output impedance of the preceeding, the voltage developed across the inputs may be less than optimal as the preceeding component struggles to source enough current (i.e. what you refer to as overloading) to permit sufficient voltage across the amplifier inputs to enable optimal peformance of the amplifier. Nevertheless, Even if the preceeding device sources sufficient current to permit sufficient voltage across the amplifier inputs, there will still be modifications to the amplfier's frequency response as result of impedance interaction between both devices owing to Ohm's law.
"Nevertheless, Even if the preceeding device sources sufficient current to permit sufficient voltage across the amplifier inputs, there will still be modifications to the amplfier's frequency response as result of impedance interaction between both devices owing to Ohm's law."Wrong.
it is not wrong, if you disagree, state your reasons.
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
"The issue being discussed was amplifier nonlinearity not global feedback. "
"Aren't the two closely related?"Sure, much in the same a vehicle gearbox and clutch are closely related.
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
Well then its clear that it is feedback is relevant to the discussion of amplifier linearity, why would you think it is a separate topic?
"Well then its clear that it is feedback is relevant to the discussion of amplifier linearity"Sure
"why would you think it is a separate topic?"
Because it is simply one of a couple of mechanisms that affect amplifier linearity, i.e. it is not the only topic relevant to amplifier linearity.
Yo theaudiohobby,I think you think much faster than you type! I just need to get that missing word decoder and I'll figure out all that stuff you post I thought I was too thick to get...;)
nice translation work!
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