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In Reply to: Nice Try At Objectivist Misdirection Hobby posted by thetubeguy1954 on March 9, 2007 at 09:54:34:
And you just proved that you don't really understand the difference between specifications and measurements very well.
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"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Follow Ups:
Unlike you Pat D-Cake I'm not afraid or ashamed to admit when I make a mistake. So YES I made a mistake and listed specs as measurents. You at least are remaining true to form behaving in your usual objectvist manner of pointing out things like errors in grammer or my reversing specs for measurements rather than simply address the topic at hand or answer the questions asked.I find it quite amusing that you'd attempt to continue Hobby's mis-direction of the topic of the post which I'll remind you is the The BIGGEST Lies Objectivists Tell About Subjectivists! By saying that I (TG1954) just proved that I don't really understand the difference between specifications and measurements very well. This is an especially amusing comment in light of the fact that I explained I knew the difference between the two. But as I said this is typical behavior of the lunatic-fringe objectvists with questionable character here on PHP.
Now "IF" you feel that my example of THD were I said that one measures Total Harmonic Distortion to get the specification of: THD < 0.05% is incorrect than by all means please educate by explaining why that is incorrect.
Finally just FYI those promises as you call them were for one of POLLYinFLA's beloved pro solidstate amps, the Crown MA-5002VZ as taken from their webpage: http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/128313.pdf (pages 18 & 19)
You said specifications are derived from measurements. Well, maybe they are and maybe they aren't. Manufacturers often overstate the specifications, for example, though with the legally required ones they probably understate them a bit. But they are different things, whether you like it or not.I have not corrected your grammar.
Funny that you don't respond to the analysis of some of the presuppositions of your questions.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat D-Cake,I stated that specifications are derived from measurements. Although I'm fairly sure I knew that to be a correct statement BEFORE making that comment I did a little research. Here's info on THD as taken from the link below, which FYI is about pro-audio components.
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THD. Total Harmonic DistortionWhat is tested? A form of nonlinearity that causes unwanted signals to be added to the input signal that are harmonically related to it. The spectrum of the output shows added frequency components at 2x the original signal, 3x, 4x, 5x, and so on, but no components at, say, 2.6x the original, or any fractional multiplier, only whole number multipliers.
How is it measured? This technique excites the unit with a single high purity sine wave and then examines the output for evidence of any frequencies other than the one applied. Performing a spectral analysis on this signal (using a spectrum, or FFT analyzer) shows that in addition to the original input sine wave, there are components at harmonic intervals of the input frequency. Total harmonic distortion (THD) is then defined as the ratio of the rms voltage of the harmonics to that of the fundamental component. This is accomplished by using a spectrum analyzer to obtain the level of each harmonic and performing an rms summation. The level is then divided by the fundamental level, and cited as the total harmonic distortion (expressed in percent). Measuring individual harmonics with precision is difficult, tedious, and not commonly done; consequently, THD+N (see below) is the more common test. Caveat Emptor: THD+N is always going to be a larger number than just plain THD. For this reason, unscrupulous (or clever, depending on your viewpoint) manufacturers choose to spec just THD, instead of the more meaningful and easily compared THD+N.
Required Conditions. Since individual harmonic amplitudes are measured, the manufacturer must state the test signal frequency, its level, and the gain conditions set on the tested unit, as well as the number of harmonics measured. Hopefully, it's obvious to the reader that the THD of a 10 kHz signal at a +20 dBu level using maximum gain, is apt to differ from the THD of a 1 kHz signal at a -10 dBV level and unity gain. And more different yet, if one manufacturer measures two harmonics while another measures five.
Full disclosure specs will test harmonic distortion over the entire 20 Hz to 20 kHz audio range (this is done easily by sweeping and plotting the results), at the pro audio level of +4 dBu. For all signal processing equipment, except mic preamps, the preferred gain setting is unity. For mic pre amps, the standard practice is to use maximum gain. Too often THD is spec'd only at 1 kHz, or worst, with no mention of frequency at all, and nothing about level or gain settings, let alone harmonic count.
Correct: THD (5th-order) less than 0.01%, +4 dBu, 20-20 kHz, unity gain
Wrong: THD less than 0.01%
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As you can clearly see it's the measurements that provided the specifications, which is precisely what I said. Now whether or not you're willing to believe what the manufacturer says is up to you or anyone else who reads them. I find it quite amusing that objectivists bow at the altar of measurements, yet don't trust that what's provided by the manufacturer is correct. That caution of course is not without some merit for as the article quite clearly states without knowing the conditions under which the measurements were taken one cannot know the validity of the specification!
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Pat D-Cake you state: I have not corrected your grammar. Not this time, but you have in the past. I was simply using it as an example of objectivist misdirection as opposed to addressing the actual topic.Thetubeguy1954
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"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,This has nothing to do with the actual topic of objectivists LIE when the say SUBJECTIVISTS THINK ALL MEASUREMENTS ARE USELESS! Why not address the actual topic at hand?
Besides if you cannot understand what specs are from what I've said, you'll have to do more reading for yourself. After all there are so many to choose from are we talking about product specifications? technical specifications? a manufacturers specifications? or design specifications to name a few. So how do I know which one you're specifically refering too?
But in all honesty I'm not going top allow you to continue to mis-direct the topic. Discuss why objectivists say: SUBJECTIVISTS THINK ALL MEASUREMENTS ARE USELESS. Let's please talk about the topic I raised, not what you'd rather mis-direct the topic to be about ok?
Thetubeguy1954
You get all upset at AJinFla's rhetorical and midly humorous exaggeration, but you don't get upset when subjectivists make all sorts of exaggerated statements--but then you do the same thing, too. For example, you can't get suspending judgment when there is a lack of evidence and so you attribute some universal negative propositions to me.Quit whining.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,#1) I don't believe POLLYinFLA statement was either rhetorical and or a mildly humorous exaggeration. I've stated numerous times in the past it's all to easy to say the nastiness that lives in your heart and then when called to the carpet for such childish, moronic statements pretend you're simply "joking" with the person. IMHO this type of behavior ceases to be "joking" the moment the person it's directed at tells you it's not seen as joke and is offensive to them! I've told this to POLLYinFLA numerous times, yet still he continues on with his "jokes"!
#2) I don't get upset when subjectivists make all sorts of exaggerated statements--but then IYHO I do the same thing, too. The reason I don't get upset because I don't see much of what you believe are exaggerated statements as being such. Rather it's simply something you personally believe, so to YOU that makes it an exaggerated statement. Those are opinions Pat and not directed at anyone. There's nothing to get upset about when people simply have opposing POVs.
I'll "Quit whining" as you call it when you speak clearly & precisely what you believe, instead of always talking in circles, mis-directing and/or coming from the postion that cannot be proved. A perfect example of Pat D being vague and mis-directing is your response here to my previous post. I asked you to simply discuss the topic at hand, i.e. objectivists LIE when they say subjectivists believe all measurements are useless.
And your response to that is this: You get all upset at AJinFla's rhetorical and midly humorous exaggeration, but you don't get upset when subjectivists make all sorts of exaggerated statements--but then you do the same thing, too. For example, you can't get suspending judgment when there is a lack of evidence and so you attribute some universal negative propositions to me.
Quit whining.Pat NOTHING about your response addresses the previous post or the topic of the original post! I don't need to stop whining Pat, you need to start discussing the topic of thread and not the tangets you want to mis-direct it to...
I have often enough pointed out that you often confuse "some" and "every."
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"Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.
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