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In Reply to: Re: Sorry, that was an inside joke between my good friend and neighbor TG54 and I posted by Tre' on March 7, 2007 at 08:21:39:
How do we know the mics on the Martin D-28 (and please stop using that as a point of reference - you're making my covet muscle re-develop!!!) or the Baldwin are the same?I get you point and I think you get mine. We have little basis for comparing live music, amplified or unamplified, with recorded - yet we continue. All we have is our hearing and our aural memory, bad as they may be. :)
Follow Ups:
> We have little basis for comparing live music, amplified or unamplified, with recorded - yet we continue. All we have is our hearing and our aural memory, bad as they may be. :)That why there are measurements, but those are useless to most audiophiles, right ;-)
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
"That why there are measurements, but those are useless to most audiophiles, right ;-)"Right!
You are joking, aren't you?
There are no measurements for the kind of things we are talking about. You can take two systems that measure the same but will sound (to the ear) very different.
Hell, a Yamaha receiver with Bose speakers measure OK. We are talking about the measurements one takes, with his ears, after all the bench measurements have been satisfied.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
> There are no measurements for the kind of things we are talking about. You can take two systems that measure the same but will sound (to the ear) very different.If they sound VERY different, some not all of the measurements will be VERY different.
> Hell, a Yamaha receiver with Bose speakers measure OK
They wouldn't measure OK not even in comparison to a Kef iQ5.
> We are talking about the measurements one takes, with his ears, after all the bench measurements have been satisfied.
As Peter Azcel would say, we listen with our ears but measure with instruments ;-).
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
"If they sound VERY different, some not all of the measurements will be VERY different."That is just not true.
Have a nice day.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Tre - If they sound VERY different, some not all of the measurements will be VERY different." That is just not true.Can you show me an example of this?
BTW, your site has no mention of the XO details for your JBL/Morel.
Can you shed some light on this? What XO frequency for the Tweeter/mid. I can't see the Morel going low enough to match the directivity of the mid unless output levels were severely restricted.
A 5" diameter cone should be getting directional about 900hz or so.
Any off axis measurements?Cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
Just ask Julian Hirsch. "They all sound the same. Oh, you mean small differences that only people who are paying attention can hear. I wasn't talking about those differences" From an interview with Peter Sutheim.Remember, small differences are big differences to audiophiles like me.
I don't believe you understand what I'm talking about. It's too subtle for you yet what we audiophools spend our time chasing.
List your system. I don't answer questions about my system for the likes of you. :-)
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Tre - Just ask Julian Hirsch.That may be difficult to do.
Tre - "They all sound the same. Oh, you mean small differences that only people who are paying attention can hear. I wasn't talking about those differences" From an interview with Peter Sutheim.
In other words, you have no example of 2 items measuring the same but sounding different. Ok, that's what I thought.
Tre - Remember, small differences are big differences to audiophiles like me.
Real or imagined?
Tre - I don't believe you understand what I'm talking about. It's too subtle for you yet what we audiophools spend our time chasing.
That is probably true.
Tre - List your system. I don't answer questions about my system for the likes of you. :-)
My system has an effect on *your* crossover and speaker design? Interesting.
cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
"In other words, you have no example of 2 items measuring the same but sounding different. Ok, that's what I thought."You missed it. JH is the God of you science types. He, dead now, for years claimed that amps that measures the same, sound the same. On Peter's show he admitted that the he did not pay attention to the "small differences" admitting they exist but beyond his scope.
So, think again.
"My system has an effect on *your* crossover and speaker design? Interesting."
And what does my system have to do with anything? We were not talking about my system, were we?What does my system have to do with systems that measure the same sounding the same?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Tre - You missed it.Missed what? I still see no example being offered, by you, of 2 components measuring the same but sounding different. Can you cite this real life example, or did you simply imagine it?
Tre - JH is the God of you science types.
He is? Wow, I wish I knew that, being agnostic and all. So if I'm a "science type", does that make you a "non-science" type? "anti-science" type? "Selective science type"? Do you drive a car? Fly in planes? Use a computer?
Hmmmm.
He, dead now, for years claimed that amps that measures the same, sound the same. On Peter's show he admitted that the he did not pay attention to the "small differences" admitting they exist but beyond his scope.I'm not quite sure what this has to do with you presenting 2 components that measure the same but sound different. Again, is this something you read, or do can you cite a real example for scrutiny?
Tre - And what does my system have to do with anything? We were not talking about my system, were we?
What does my system have to do with systems that measure the same sounding the same?Nothing. I saw your speakers on your website and asked the following:
AJ - BTW, your site has no mention of the XO details for your JBL/Morel. Can you shed some light on this? What XO frequency for the Tweeter/mid. I can't see the Morel going low enough to match the directivity of the mid unless output levels were severely restricted.
A 5" diameter cone should be getting directional about 900hz or so.
Any off axis measurements?I'm a speaker builder and was interested. Perhaps you found the questions offensive or they somehow made you uncomfortable? My apologies. No offense intended, just curiosity. Nice drivers overall IMHO, but XO is the glue that holds it all together.
cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
Can you show me two amplifiers that are different but measure the same (that is, no differences that would account for them sounding different) and sound the same?I'll make it easier. Can you show me two amplifiers that sound the same?
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I have heard differences between CD players that measure, for all intent and purposes, the same.
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So tell me about the JBL 2118. I'm not a speaker guy but the JBL seems to act like a big tweeter. Can you elaborate? (I'm asking you to tell me what I'm saying) Thanks.
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Please show the math for speaker beaming. I understand that once the wave length is shorter than the diameter of the cone beaming will occur. I'm sure there is more to it than that. Thanks._________________________________________________________________
I'm an engineer who understands that, when it comes to audio, we still don't know what to measure.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I'm an engineer who understands that, when it comes to audio, we still don't know what to measure.Many times a product measures well and is considered done. Trained listeners observe that it sounds like crap. Those guys go back to the drawing board and lo and behold, they "find" something they ignored before to explain the observations.
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
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