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In Reply to: Show us HOW such subjectives are "measurable" .. posted by cheap-Jack on March 6, 2007 at 11:42:21:
and loss of resolution and dynamics are directly measureable.
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
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Why not just read it up yourself, the last time I checked you were not interested in such measurements, so why bother asking?
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
Hobby,Forgive me for saying so but this is typical objectivist behavior. You stated that dynamics (which I believe is easily measured) and loss of resolution are able to be measured.
Please explain how one measures loss of resolution and if you would what measurements determine soundstage Height? Depth? Width? Or how is air around instruments measured? Those are all important traits to me yet I know of no measurements that correlate with them.
Hi.Want to tell me where to find them again in case I've missed them.
But at the moment they can only be determined as such subjectively.
"But at the moment they can only be determined as such subjectively. "No, their subjective evaluation is no different than for other parameters such frequency response or SPLs. At any rate that is besides the issue, the point is that those parameters are in fact measureable. And we are back again discussing listener perception and objective measured performance and all the associated baggage, related but certainly not identical.
"No, their subjective evaluation is no different than for other parameters such frequency response or SPLs"How can you measure a loss of resolution? Dynamics, maybe but only with tests that don't really exist at the moment (for example measuring dynamic or power compression with a sudden burst to simulate real music transients). I have seen a paper on thermal compression and they found that at normal levels the speakers had only small differences in compression. However, one or the other speaker will SOUND more compressed than the other, which suggests that something was being missed in the measurements that were being made. At high levels often the woofer begins to compress first (this was always a test in Audio way back when and invariably the woofer would poop out before the mid and tweeter...at around 120 db though). The instantaneous shifts are not indicated by such a test and the ear seems to be sensitive to the difference.
"At any rate that is besides the issue, the point is that those parameters are in fact measureable"
They may be measureable but are they relevant?
"And we are back again discussing listener perception and objective measured performance and all the associated baggage"
Naturally because until there is a solid correlation between the two it will be the core issue.
"How can you measure a loss of resolution? Dynamics, maybe but only with tests that don't really exist at the moment (for example measuring dynamic or power compression with a sudden burst to simulate real music transients). "Well, Behringer made a good stab at it, even managed to write a suite of programs to modify some of those variables, how did they manage that ;-).
" However, one or the other speaker will SOUND more compressed than the other, which suggests that something was being missed in the measurements that were being made."
I doubt it is being missed, just not provided to endusers as the information is only useful to those with the requisite specialist knowledge.
Your response should be most interesting, please try and keep it polite.
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
"Well, Behringer made a good stab at it, even managed to write a suite of programs to modify some of those variables, how did they manage that ;-)."They did what? Made software to reduce resolution? I mean I guess if you inject distortion or noise into the signal you can accomplish this. Dynamics? Well of course they can be expanded or compressed electronically but if we are talking about the native dynamics of a speaker then maybe they can measure some aspects of it but not under real music conditions.
"I doubt it is being missed, just not provided to endusers as the information is only useful to those with the requisite specialist knowledge"
Your speculations are duly noted but realize that in the absence of such data my position that the information is not available holds more water than your speculation that information is being withheld. Prove to me they can make relevant measurements in this regard. Maybe they can but maybe not.
"They did what? Made software to reduce resolution?"I thought we were discussion measuring the loss of resolution, at any rate some other programs do that, but that is an aside here.
"Dynamics? Well of course they can be expanded or compressed electronically but if we are talking about the native dynamics of a speaker then maybe they can measure some aspects of it but not under real music conditions"
Engineered dynamic compression/expansion takes place under real music conditions.
"Your speculations are duly noted but realize that in the absence of such data my position that the information is not available holds more water than your speculation that information is being withheld"
Your position is no more valid than mine, not that it matters anyway.
"Prove to me they can make relevant measurements in this regard"
Too much trouble....
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
"I thought we were discussion measuring the loss of resolution,"WE ARE!! And I would posit that you have not mentioned yet how measuring let alone clearly defining what is meant by loss of resolution can be accomplished. Now you say that Behringer whipped up some software to do just that? Name of the device they sell, please that does this (if you point me to a distortion box I don't whether to laugh or cry).
"Engineered dynamic compression/expansion takes place under real music conditions."
We are not talking about electronic purposeful solutions for making compression or expansion. It is well known that these things have existed for a long time. We are talking about getting accurate measurements from the intrinsic behavior of a driver under real music conditions. These are two completely different things and I hope you can see this.
My position is more valid because you are the one claiming its measurable and I am claiming that the determination under real world and not static conditions is not available. Since you can't or won't provide an example of how this might be done then my position is clearly stronger.
Engineered dynamic compression/expansion takes place under real music conditions.Is that real ketchup, Eddie?
Bwahahahahahaha!
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