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In Reply to: What the hell are you talking about? posted by Tre' on March 6, 2007 at 14:16:53:
He kinda references it here like he's done before in this thread above http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/29549.htmlTG54 - amazing how the Mastersound Reference 845 sounds like live unamplified music
except he added some qualifiers this time. He almost never states whether it has to be connected to speakers, as if that would have any relevance :-).
Anyhow, doesn't look like it http://www.nsca.org/Expo/Attendees/EveningEvents/tabid/367/Default.aspx#2007ExpoJam
but maybe TomServo would be the better one to ask.cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
Follow Ups:
Tre' you'll have to forgive POLLYinFLA. He's such a bird-brain one needs to go into great detail when saying somthing as simple as: The Mastersound Reference 845 produces the closest replication of live, unamplified music I've ever heard!"First POLLYinFLA takes offense with this for some strange reason. I've never said the the Mastersound Reference 845 produces the closest replication of live, unamplified music of any amplifier made. What I've said is Mastersound Reference 845 produces the closest replication of live, unamplified music I've ever heard. POLLYinFLA doesn't seem capable of understanding the difference between those 2 statements.
Second I apparently gave old bird-brain credit for having too much intelligence. Sorry but I assumed the audiophiles/music lovers here at PHP would realize that I could not make the statement that an integrated amp like the Mastersound, produces the closest replication of live, unamplified music I've ever heard. Unless it was being used as intended. I almost never state it is connected to speakers, NOT because that doesn't have any relevance, but rather because I credited most readers with understanding it would have to be to make my statement :^)
But for idiots like POLLYinFLA I'll explain that in order to state that the Mastersound, produces the closest replication of live, unamplified music I've ever heard. That would presume a source, wires from the source to the Mastersound and then speaker wire to the speakers, as well as power cords to the source and integrated amp.
OK POLLYinFLA do you finally understand?
Thetubeguy1954
Why don't you explain to Tre how your Mastersound sounds just like live unamplified music when hooked to a pair of Bose or Radioshack speakers. After all, it is the amp that is responsible for this magnificent sound. Isn't it?cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
POLLYinFLA made another the idiotic post, as ONLY he could make. POLLYinFLA asked me: Why don't you explain to Tre how your Mastersound sounds just like live unamplified music when hooked to a pair of Bose or Radioshack speakers. After all, it is the amp that is responsible for this magnificent sound. Isn't it?I think Tre', unlike yourself understands in the end one hears a system as a whole. Obviously a system can only sound as good as it weakest link. The Mastersound Reference 845 integrated amp replicates the closest to live unamplified music that I've ever heard, period! Again, obviously the better the source (BlueNote Stibbert) the better the interconnects (Z-Squared Au/Au) the better the speaker wire (Nordost Blue Heaven) and the better the speakers (Aliante Pinafarina Ones) the better one will hear what the Mastersound is capable of.
Hooked up to Bose or Radioshack speakers as you propose will not make the Mastersound any less of an amp. What it will do is limit how much of the Mastersound's capabilities can be heard, due to the restrictions of the speakers you suggest using. This is why it took years (YES YEARS) of trying different interconnects, speakerwire, CD Players & speakers to get my system to where it is now. An analogy of what your proposing would be to take an exceptional dancer, (exceptional dancer = mastersound) restrict his capabilities by placing him in a closet, (restrict the mastersound's capabilities by connect Bose speakers) ridicule the person who declared he was the best dancer he'd ever seen, (person = me declaring the mastersound is the best I've heard) because in these circumstances he cannot dance exceptionaly (just like with Bose speakers attached the mastersound cannot sound the best I've ever heard)
What I cannot understand is how or why anyone could have a problem with my stating my opinion that he Mastersound Reference 845 integrated amp replicates the closest to live unamplified music that I've ever heard, period! Do you miss that I said that I'VE EVER HEARD? Never have I declared it's the best amp in the world, in fact I know you've read my inmates system because you've provided a link to it in your previous posts. Did you also miss where I said although I'm sure better exists, I haven't heard it as of yet.
Honestly POLLYinFLA only an idiot would try to make the arguement that because we hear a system as whole, we cannot know what the individual components "sound" like. Just like only an idiot would comment on the sonic traits of audio components they've never heard! Hey you do both of those things don't you?
OK, I understand. Inside joke.If the live music is amplified it has very little value as a reference.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
> If the live music is amplified it has very little value as a reference. <Except how would you then have any idea if your system was properly capturing Herb Ellis' plugged in Gibson ES-175 (or a host of other electric jazz guitarists) or Chick Corea's electric Fender Rhodes piano? Or Steve Swallow's electric bass? These guys are jazz performers. Sometimes you just gotta plug in!
Now if you're referring to heavy metal or rap or something, I would agree. But electricity alone does not mean the music cannot be used as a reference.
Hello Kerr,You addressed a good question when you responded to: If the live music is amplified it has very little value as a reference. With: Except how would you then have any idea if your system was properly capturing Herb Ellis' plugged in Gibson ES-175 (or a host of other electric jazz guitarists) or Chick Corea's electric Fender Rhodes piano? Or Steve Swallow's electric bass? These guys are jazz performers. Sometimes you just gotta plug in!
The reasoning behind this is actually quite simples. We use live unamplified music as our "Reference Standard" because it doesn't allow for additional components & wires to add their own distinct signature sound. So we use a variety of instruments & voices which have their own unique natural unamplified sonic characteristics. Typically I like to start with a piano, because it covers such a wide frequency range. Then I go for what I call "plucked" strings via listening to acoustic guitars, banjos, mandolins & stand up bass. This allows me to hear a fairly wide frequency range from the low bass to the high notes of a mandolin. Plus I get to hear the different harmonics of a guitar, mandolin & banjo. I also like to hear bowed strings via stand up bass, cello & violins as well. Next I go to brass with trumpets, saxes, trompones flutes. I don't know why but that's also when I listen to harmonicas. After that it's male & female voices from bass to sopranos. If we can get these to sound as close as we possibly can to what those instruments & vocals sound like, then we can rest assured that amplified music will be replicated as faithfully as possible!
So yes Kerr sometimes you just gotta plug in to hear Chick Corea's electric Fender Rhodes piano? Or Steve Swallow's electric bass? However to hear these outstanding jazz performers sound the best they can in our homes, you and I need to get the live unamplified sound correct first. Once you've/we've done that everything else just falls into place...
Thetubeguy1954
Now if you're referring to heavy metal or rap or something, I would agree. But electricity alone does not mean the music cannot be used as a reference.
> I don't know why but that's also when I listen to harmonicas. After that it's male & female voices from bass to sopranos <Interesting. A blues harmonica playing friend of mine likens his instrument to the human voice. However, any argument I might further make falls flat on its face because he blows into a microphone that is sealed against his lips, thereby creating the distortion that Chicago-style blues harpmeisters covet. Oh, well... it sounds good and it is after all the blues!
The reason I use the electric guitar is quite natural - I play it. Of course, I also play the acoustic but I'm primarily an electric player. It's the sound I'm used to and, of course, any electric guitarist can tell which Gibson, Fender or Gretsch someone is playing, along with its age - with a few years fudge factor one way or the other. Same goes with many amps. As with audio gear, I occasionally get fooled but not very often.
The flip side is that I agree with you and Tre that live unamplified music is the barometer. I go listen whenever I can and usually spend a few weeks a year in NYC jazz nightclubbing because I enjoy it and also to help re-calibrate the ol' ears. Stereo gear pales in comparison to live music... or even "dead" (recorded) music. Next time you and AJ trek up to Indiana, stop in and listen... OW! Tom! Stop hitting me! OUCH... I was KIDDING!!!! MOMMEEEEEE!!!! :)
Hi Kerr,That's interesting to know your harmonica playing friend equates his instrument to the human voice. I've found, and I'm curious if others here will agree with this statement, that the harmonica is a very difficult acoustic instrument to get to truly sound correct.
Kerr I don't know if you know who Howard Levy is but he's an incredible harmonica player. In Howard's hands the harmonica truly becomes an beautiful instrument. I'm having a brain fart right now because I cannot remember which song it is by him that I use to voice harmonicas. IIRC it's his version of Walking In Memphis on the CD Discovery by John Tesh that's incredible! Howard also plays a duet with Nelson Rangell on flute that I use to voice a system due to the complexity of the smooth, breathy sound of the flute accompanied by the raspy, woody yet also breathy sound of the harmonica. By breathy I mean the way you hear the wind blow through each instrument as they're being played.
As far as the next time I trek up to Indiana, I appreciate your invite to stop in and listen. I just cannot fathom the circumstances that would occur to possibly get me in a car with that pompous prick POLLYinFLA! Sorry Polly but this time you don't get a cracker. Seeing you for who you are i.e., a "man" who gets his enjoyment via ridiculing others and who'd rather provoke than intelligently discuss a topic, doesn't mean I'm angry when I call you what I know you are. At the same time it also means you're no one I'd care to ever know personally either.
Statute of Limitations has thankfully run its course! Ah, those were the days! No one cared if audio sounded like live music because we had no clue what live music sounded like - at least not what it sounded like without the blissful haze of dubage blasting through our noggins.Now it's scotch and an occasional Hennessey XO... and in MUCH smaller doses! :)
--
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
nt
I didn't say it can't be used as a reference. It can.But how do we know Herb Ellis had his tone controls set the exact same way on his Gibson ES-175 the night we saw him live as compared to when he was in the studio?
How do we know that Chick Corea is using the same electric Fender Rhodes piano not the one that had the speakers replaced?
A Baldwin piano is a Baldwin piano and a Martin D-28 is a Martin D-28...etc.
When acoustic music is used as a reference and the system passes the "test" I would think the electric stuff will come out right as well.
The system is either right or it's not. But using the electric stuff as a reference I don't know how one would ever be sure.
I think you can get my point.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
How do we know the mics on the Martin D-28 (and please stop using that as a point of reference - you're making my covet muscle re-develop!!!) or the Baldwin are the same?I get you point and I think you get mine. We have little basis for comparing live music, amplified or unamplified, with recorded - yet we continue. All we have is our hearing and our aural memory, bad as they may be. :)
> We have little basis for comparing live music, amplified or unamplified, with recorded - yet we continue. All we have is our hearing and our aural memory, bad as they may be. :)That why there are measurements, but those are useless to most audiophiles, right ;-)
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
"That why there are measurements, but those are useless to most audiophiles, right ;-)"Right!
You are joking, aren't you?
There are no measurements for the kind of things we are talking about. You can take two systems that measure the same but will sound (to the ear) very different.
Hell, a Yamaha receiver with Bose speakers measure OK. We are talking about the measurements one takes, with his ears, after all the bench measurements have been satisfied.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
> There are no measurements for the kind of things we are talking about. You can take two systems that measure the same but will sound (to the ear) very different.If they sound VERY different, some not all of the measurements will be VERY different.
> Hell, a Yamaha receiver with Bose speakers measure OK
They wouldn't measure OK not even in comparison to a Kef iQ5.
> We are talking about the measurements one takes, with his ears, after all the bench measurements have been satisfied.
As Peter Azcel would say, we listen with our ears but measure with instruments ;-).
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
"If they sound VERY different, some not all of the measurements will be VERY different."That is just not true.
Have a nice day.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Tre - If they sound VERY different, some not all of the measurements will be VERY different." That is just not true.Can you show me an example of this?
BTW, your site has no mention of the XO details for your JBL/Morel.
Can you shed some light on this? What XO frequency for the Tweeter/mid. I can't see the Morel going low enough to match the directivity of the mid unless output levels were severely restricted.
A 5" diameter cone should be getting directional about 900hz or so.
Any off axis measurements?Cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
Just ask Julian Hirsch. "They all sound the same. Oh, you mean small differences that only people who are paying attention can hear. I wasn't talking about those differences" From an interview with Peter Sutheim.Remember, small differences are big differences to audiophiles like me.
I don't believe you understand what I'm talking about. It's too subtle for you yet what we audiophools spend our time chasing.
List your system. I don't answer questions about my system for the likes of you. :-)
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Tre - Just ask Julian Hirsch.That may be difficult to do.
Tre - "They all sound the same. Oh, you mean small differences that only people who are paying attention can hear. I wasn't talking about those differences" From an interview with Peter Sutheim.
In other words, you have no example of 2 items measuring the same but sounding different. Ok, that's what I thought.
Tre - Remember, small differences are big differences to audiophiles like me.
Real or imagined?
Tre - I don't believe you understand what I'm talking about. It's too subtle for you yet what we audiophools spend our time chasing.
That is probably true.
Tre - List your system. I don't answer questions about my system for the likes of you. :-)
My system has an effect on *your* crossover and speaker design? Interesting.
cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
"In other words, you have no example of 2 items measuring the same but sounding different. Ok, that's what I thought."You missed it. JH is the God of you science types. He, dead now, for years claimed that amps that measures the same, sound the same. On Peter's show he admitted that the he did not pay attention to the "small differences" admitting they exist but beyond his scope.
So, think again.
"My system has an effect on *your* crossover and speaker design? Interesting."
And what does my system have to do with anything? We were not talking about my system, were we?What does my system have to do with systems that measure the same sounding the same?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Tre - You missed it.Missed what? I still see no example being offered, by you, of 2 components measuring the same but sounding different. Can you cite this real life example, or did you simply imagine it?
Tre - JH is the God of you science types.
He is? Wow, I wish I knew that, being agnostic and all. So if I'm a "science type", does that make you a "non-science" type? "anti-science" type? "Selective science type"? Do you drive a car? Fly in planes? Use a computer?
Hmmmm.
He, dead now, for years claimed that amps that measures the same, sound the same. On Peter's show he admitted that the he did not pay attention to the "small differences" admitting they exist but beyond his scope.I'm not quite sure what this has to do with you presenting 2 components that measure the same but sound different. Again, is this something you read, or do can you cite a real example for scrutiny?
Tre - And what does my system have to do with anything? We were not talking about my system, were we?
What does my system have to do with systems that measure the same sounding the same?Nothing. I saw your speakers on your website and asked the following:
AJ - BTW, your site has no mention of the XO details for your JBL/Morel. Can you shed some light on this? What XO frequency for the Tweeter/mid. I can't see the Morel going low enough to match the directivity of the mid unless output levels were severely restricted.
A 5" diameter cone should be getting directional about 900hz or so.
Any off axis measurements?I'm a speaker builder and was interested. Perhaps you found the questions offensive or they somehow made you uncomfortable? My apologies. No offense intended, just curiosity. Nice drivers overall IMHO, but XO is the glue that holds it all together.
cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
Can you show me two amplifiers that are different but measure the same (that is, no differences that would account for them sounding different) and sound the same?I'll make it easier. Can you show me two amplifiers that sound the same?
______________________________________________________________
I have heard differences between CD players that measure, for all intent and purposes, the same.
____________________________________________________________________
So tell me about the JBL 2118. I'm not a speaker guy but the JBL seems to act like a big tweeter. Can you elaborate? (I'm asking you to tell me what I'm saying) Thanks.
____________________________________________________________
Please show the math for speaker beaming. I understand that once the wave length is shorter than the diameter of the cone beaming will occur. I'm sure there is more to it than that. Thanks._________________________________________________________________
I'm an engineer who understands that, when it comes to audio, we still don't know what to measure.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I'm an engineer who understands that, when it comes to audio, we still don't know what to measure.Many times a product measures well and is considered done. Trained listeners observe that it sounds like crap. Those guys go back to the drawing board and lo and behold, they "find" something they ignored before to explain the observations.
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
> But electricity alone does not mean the music cannot be used as a reference.
It can be used as a reference, but not as a reference of live UNAMPLIFIED music, because it is AMPLIFIED ;-).
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
> It can be used as a reference, but not as a reference of live UNAMPLIFIED music, because it is AMPLIFIED ;-). <Drat those subtleties! :)
And then there's the problem of listening to a guitarist using an amp on the recording that clashes with the amp you're listening through at home! :)
.
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