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In Reply to: Chip Amp Voicing Is Definitely Dominated By POLLYinFLA's Disastrous Decision! posted by thetubeguy1954 on March 5, 2007 at 07:52:06:
Nice to see you continuing your therapy here. I know you really look forward to my posts, so here we go :-).
BTW, I'm really glad that you enjoyed my parrot routine so much that you adopted it and have taken to parroting it yourself. See how much fun this can be when the pitbull is laughing instead of threatening bodily harm?TG54 - Although POLLYinFLA would have you simply take his and Behringer's word
My word and a manufacturers words are two different things. If I stated what the manufacturer did, then what you can do it take your mouse and left click/drag over my words, then right click, select paste and then quote me saying what it is I actually said, see, like I did with you just above. Works great for quoting instead of deluding oneself into thinking what another might have said. Remember now, this is all part of your treatment here at the asylum.
TG54 - Although it's *not the same model* I've heard the ULTRA-CURVE PRO DSP8024
Exactly.
TG54 - It was detrimental to soundtaging and subjectively added a harshness that only removing it fully cured.
Well, there could be several reasons, including the most likely, operator error, but also poor synergy with the power cord used, poor synergy with the IC used, poor synergy with the other components (non-pro?) etc., etc., so there's really no way to pin point anything to the unit itself.
TG54 - It was detrimental to soundtaging and subjectively added a harshness that only removing it fully cured.
Again see above. Now, this all assumes that what you are saying is not completely fabricated for effect, like remember the story that you made up about once being a subjectivist, except no one believed you except you? Could this be similar? Take several deep breaths before you answer that one, remember, this is the new, calm, non ranting Tom that was promised oh so long ago.
TG54 - I'll readily admit I just assumed it was placed between the preamp & amplifier. It's quite possible I am mistaken and will need to ask the owner if that's how it was inserted or if it was done as Behringer suggested in their manuel.
Who is this Manuel you keep referring to? Is he the owner? I'm really confused here.
TG54 - As for POLLYinFLA I originally posted to him in a very civil manner, but his first few posts were filled with disparaging comments that refered to my amp as an euphonic noise generator, my speakers as floppy little cones and IIRC refering to me as Tubeboob. He constantly talks about my needing therapy etc.
Ok, first of all, I refer to the Mastersound as a Nutrasweetener, ie, an artificial flavoring, which I thought you would find as a compliment, seeing that is your sonic goal correct? Plus, why do you take my remarks about your amplifier so personally, as if you are filled with self doubt about its true performance? Why the utter lack of confidence and not just laughing it off like I do your comments about my equipment?
What exactly is wrong with my comments about your floppy little poly cones that sound like real, live music?
You only need use the search function to see that I have never called you anything like Tubeboob. C'mon now Tom, you're making that one up like the ol' you use to be a subjectivist thing and remember the you did the blind test thing and could easily tell differences tale? That was a great one! How about we just laugh together about stuff like that instead of all this raging pitbull being prodded business?
Ok, now mark your calendar. I know you were crushed missing out on heading up to Chicago to hear your first real set of speakers, but now the show is coming to you! NSCA Expo 2007 is around the corner!
It should serve as a nice alarm clock for you. There will be lots of folks there dying to hear your stories about 35 watt tube amps and 6" plastic cone computer speakers and god like wires, etc, etc.
How about we share all the laughs and attend the show together?
You'll get see and hear what real amps, speakers, etc. sound like and have lots o' fun. Hopefully hear some live music too, as a reality check for you of how little your stereo sounds like it.
Whaddaya say?cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
Follow Ups:
To my comment of: Although it's *not the same model* I've heard the ULTRA-CURVE PRO DSP8024, POLLYinFLA responded: Exactly.I suppose POLLYinFLA's contention is that that because I haven't heard the precise model he's refering to, I have no idea about it's sound quality or lack of it. I readily admit there's a bit of truth to what POLLYinFLA suggests. However, I've noticed in that most manufactuers components tend to have a family sonic signature, thus my comments about ULTRA-CURVE PRO DSP8024 which I admitted wasn't the same product.
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Speaking about the ULTRA-CURVE PRO DSP8024 I mentioned it was detrimental to soundtaging and subjectively added a harshness that only removing it fully cured. To this POLLYinFLA being the idiot that he is refrained from any intelligent or rational input and suggested about someone he doesn't know: Well, there could be several reasons, including the most likely, operator error! The man I am speaking of (Paul B.) is a professional recording engineer and one IIRC that Tom Danley holds in fairly high esteem. So I'm sure old bird-brain has it correct and the problems were "most likely" human error.Next POLLYinFLA continues in his usual condescending manner by talking about things he believes cannot effect the sound as if they're the actual problem, when he stated: but also poor synergy with the power cord used, poor synergy with the IC used, poor synergy with the other components (non-pro?) etc., etc., so there's really no way to pin point anything to the unit itself.
This is more typical POLLYinFLA bird-brained, banter. It's quite easy to pin-point the problem as being the ULTRA-CURVE PRO DSP8024. All we had top do was listen to the system before inserting the ULTRA-CURVE PRO DSP8024. When it's out of the circuit the music sounds more harmonically correct with nice soundstaging. Next we simply add this additional audio component and listen again. Unfortunately when the the ULTRA-CURVE PRO DSP8024 is in the circuit the music sounds less harmonically correct with worse soundstaging capabilities. I guess this procedure is too complicated for a bird brain like POLLYinFLA.
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Now when I commented that the ULTRA-CURVE PRO DSP8024 was detrimental to soundtaging and subjectively added a harshness that only removing it fully cured. POLLYinFLA needed to come up with a way to defend his beloeved pro-solidstate gear. So POLLYinFLA claims this all assumes that what you are saying is not completely fabricated for effect. I'd like to respond by saying no one has ever caught me in a lie here, because I haven't lied. Second Tom Danley knows the person I'm speaking about, so you can believe what you will POLLYin(Tampax)FLA. Now as far as the story that POLLYinFLA believes I made up about once being an Objectivist (not Subjectivist you bird brain) that doesn't surprise me that not one Objectivist believed me! After all you guys want so desperately to believe you correct and simply cannot bear the fact that some of us wise up, listen with ears and see the fallacy of the Objectivist way.
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POLLYinFLA asked Could this be similar? Well yes POLLYinFLA it is similar. It the exact same tactic objectivists always take, i.e deny the truth & misdirect. So in your attempt to misdirect POLLYinFLA now turns the topic to me by implying I'm upset with his comments of: Take several deep breaths before you answer that one, remember, this is the new, calm, non ranting Tom that was promised oh so long ago. Poor bird-brained POLLYinFLA. He cannot tell the difference from a long post and a rant. Just like he cannot tell the difference between a real audiophile's system and a system based on his bastardization of Dr Linkwitz's Orions, powered by multiples of pro-solidstate amps, using copious amounts of equalization (in an vain attempt to get some coherency)and all the extra wires these many amps and equalizers use. Instead of audio nirvana that sounds like the highway to audio hell.
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In an effort to remain honest I stated: I'll readily admit I just assumed it was placed between the preamp & amplifier. It's quite possible I am mistaken and will need to ask the owner if that's how it was inserted or if it was done as copious suggested in their manuel. POLLYinFLA in another vain attempt at humour stated: Who is this Manuel you keep referring to? Is he the owner? I'm really confused here. It doesn't surprise me that old bird-brained POLLYinFLA couldn't follow I was refering to Behringer's audio manuel that accompanies their ULTRA-CURVE PRO DSP8024. What does surprise me is how POLLYinFLA readily admits something we've all been quite aware of here on PHP He's Confused!
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When I TG54 commented that I originally posted to POLLYinFLA in a very civil manner, but his first few posts were filled with disparaging comments that refered to my amp as an euphonic noise generator, my speakers as floppy little cones and IIRC refering to me as Tubeboob. He constantly talks about my needing therapy etc.POLLY the pompous ass said: Ok, first of all, I refer to the Mastersound as a Nutrasweetener, ie, an artificial flavoring, which I thought you would find as a compliment, seeing that is your sonic goal correct? NO! POLLYinFLA that isn't my goal. Unlike you and your highway to hell system, I'm attempting to get as close to the sound of live, unamplified music as I can get, period. Not some mis-conceived idea of what that should sound like!
Next in typical objectivist fashion he attempts to mis-direct by now turning the topic to be about me. For POLLYinFLA putrid, patronizing, pompous proclomation of: Plus, why do you take my remarks about your amplifier so personally, as if you are filled with self doubt about its true performance? Why the utter lack of confidence and not just laughing it off like I do your comments about my equipment?
This arrogant ass always assumes anything about another. POLLYinFLA what you really need to understand is I don't take your comments about my amp as being with any merit, let alone personally. If I was filled with this self doubt you want so desperately to believe I am, I would have sold the Mastersound by now. What you continually fail to understand is that I believe I hear amazing differences between how well the Mastersound Reference 845 replicates live unamplified music verses other amps I've heard and that's all that matters to me. I know without any question that my approach has resulted in a system which provides me with an emotional connection to music that I have seldom, if ever experienced with any other systems reproducing music. I have no need or desire to prove to you or anyone else how well my system replicates music. At one time you actually had the chance of hearing what your stereo (that is if replicating live unamplified music is your goal) should sound like. But your arrogance has forever ended that opportunity with me.
FYI I have owned some very nice and fairly expensive solidstate systems in the past. Unfortunately in the end I was never really happy with what I heard. Within 6 to 12 months of a new purchase I was always looking to upgrade the amp, preamp, CD player, interconnects and/or speakerwire. That all changed for me about 4.5 years back. One day I was bored and I started to read about SET amps on the internet. I couldn't believe ANYONE would want a 1 to 10w/ch amplifier! As if that wasn't crazy enough, these people were very restricted in their speaker choices as well. I just couldn't fathom why anyone would willingly make such as self-limiting choice. But a funny thing occured as I continued reading. I noticed one thing that really grabbed my attention. Almost all SET owners seemed to jump off the upgrade train after they purchased their SET amp. As I continued reading as much as I could find about SET's and their owners I noticed how happy they all seemed to be with their systems. That happiness with their systems is what caused me to decide to look into SETs for myself and that lead to my I buying the Mastersound. Then another funny thing happened, just like I read in the articles from SET owner's I too belived I never, ever heard a better amp (although I know there are better amps) Just like all the articles I read I was finally happy with my amp and my audio system. Just like the other SET owners I jumped off the "upgrade train." To this day completely happy with the sound of this amp. I'll own the Mastersound until one of us dies! I've owned the Mastersound for almost 5 years now and that's the longest I've ever owned ANY audio component without wanting to upgrade! I've never heard more realistic sound from any amp than I do using the Mastersound and I've never been happier with my audio system either.
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POLLYinFLA asked me: What exactly is wrong with my comments about your floppy little poly cones that sound like real, live music? The "ONLY" problem is your constant disparaging of audio components you've never personally heard. The laughable part is these remarks are coming from a man whose personal audio system is composed of components that most audiophiles/music lovers here on PHP, even amongst the objectivists, would cringe at just the thought of hearing it!
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POLLYinFLA also states: You only need use the search function to see that I have never called you anything like Tubeboob. Truth be told POLLY I'm not about to look through 100's of your unintelligent, unrational posts that simple berate, disparage & ridicule everyone & any component that isn't either a solidstate pro unit or some form of a speaker based on Dr Linkwitz's beliefs. Sorry but I have so many better things to do with my time.
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C'mon now Tom, you're making that one up like the ol' you use to be a subjectivist thing and remember the you did the blind test thing and could easily tell differences tale? That was a great one! How about we just laugh together about stuff like that instead of all this raging pitbull being prodded business?POLLYinFLA just because you don't believe something doesn't mean I'm lying or making it up. I'd appreciate your at least waiting until you catch me in a lie (which you'll never do) BEFORE accusing me of lying by making up stories to support my POV. The truth is I started my audiophile life as an Objectivist. I was about 15 and didn't believe a) wires could possibly sound different b) tubes were a viable audio technology. What's so difficult to accept about that? Thats what you believe even to this day! As far as the raging pitbull crap is concerned I attempted via an analogy to show you how YOUR behviour was no different than that of a child prodding a chained dog because they felt safe. As you continue on in that assinine childish fashion I believe someday, somewhere you'll prod a "dog" via comments like you constantly make here and either you'll misjudge the chain's length or the chain will break and you'll get bit. How you've twisted that in that bird-brain of yours into meaning I want to physically hurt you is something only you can understand. I was trying to help you , not hurt you.
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Ok, now mark your calendar. I know you were crushed missing out on heading up to Chicago to hear your first real set of speakers, but now the show is coming to you! NSCA Expo 2007 is around the corner!
It should serve as a nice alarm clock for you.POLLYinFLA you're such a pompous ass you don't know that I've already been exposed to Tom Danley's original "Unity Horn" design when he licensed a friend of mine (Nick) here in Florida to make them. Ask Tom Danley bout my friend who owned Lambda Acoustics. POLLYinFLA I've been exposed to so much more than you can imagine o bird-brained one. Yet in your pompous I know everything attitude you simply assume once I hear something you like (which I've already heard) my eyes will open, I'll see the errors of my ways and I'll agree with your POV. Keep dreaming bird brain.
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POLLYinFLA asks: How about we share all the laughs and attend the show together? POLLYinFLA are you honestly so dense as to not understand that thought of meeting you disgusts me? I truely think you're mentally unstable. Anyone who gets his jollies out of trying to get a rise out of others by constantly ridiculing their audio choices & beliefs is NOT somone I'd want to meet, let alone hang out with! How many times do I have to tell you that I see your actions as an adult man who attempts to torment others with insults about their beliefs & choices in audio, because you feel safe hiding behind your moniker. Is exactly like a child tormenting a dog because he feels safe hiding behind the chain that holds the dog? Sorry POLLYinFLA I don't hang out with twisted, demented people who see it as fun & enjoyable to ridicule and torment others. But perhaps you can find another like yourself. You know birds of feather sort of thing!
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Polly proclaims: You'll get see and hear what real amps, speakers, etc. sound like and have lots o' fun. POLLYinFLA I've seen and heard a lot of pro-solidstate gear Crown, Crest, QSC & BGW amps. Lots of pro speakers Westlake, JBL, Altec, Tannoy, Genelec, Mackie. KRK Systems, TAD & Tom Danley's Unity horns. I've also seen a good share of some of the best of home audio solidstate amps, Mark Levinson, Krell, Rowland, Edge, Ayre, OCM, Belles, Threshold, and while in England Musical Fidelity, Chord, Naim, Linn. As for tubed amps, Conrad-Johson, Acoustic Research, Lamm, Graaf, VAC, Berning, Sonic Frontiers, Wavac, BAT, Air Tight, Mastersound, Cary, KR Audio, McIntosh 275, Marantz 8B. For highend speakers I've heard the HQD (Hartley-Quad-Decca) Infinity IRS, Wilson Watt/Puppy & Alexandria, JM Labs Utopia, B&W 800D, Von Schweikert, Snell, Sonus Faber & Aliante and while in England Lumley, Quad, Spendor, Forsman (looked like a giant Karlson design to me. My point is I didn't by my present components without a lot of prior exposure to some really nice stuff, so I doubt you're going to be able to present me with any eye-opening news!
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Finally old bid-brain. I play an Ovation guitar. I used to be in a band when I was much younger. I attend almost every concert WLOQ has in the summer 3/16/07 starts off a new season of live jazz concerts. Plus I go to the Bob Carr Performing Arts Center here in Orlando, Fla to hear symphonies, so I have plenty of exposure to live unamplified music. Thus I know how close my system comes to the real thing ---which is why you should have availed yourself of the opportunity to hear it BEFORE I knew what a pompous ass you are and rescinded my original invitation to visit my home. So whaddaya say?I say I'm glad we never met!
Thetubeguy1954
--
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
"Hopefully hear some live music too"Would that be live, unamplified music?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Tre - Would that be live, unamplified music?
For that, TG54 would have to bring his Mastersound. I can carry a decent amount of weight, so it's feasible. It would be a breath of fresh air at such an event, to have a real amp like the Nutrasweetner845A there, introducing folks to what live music really sounds like, instead of that harsh, grainy, skating rink stuff they're all use to.
Hopefully TG54 is ok with it.cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
> Nutrasweetner845A there, introducing folks to what live music really sounds like, instead of that harsh, grainy, skating rink stuff they're all use to. <If Tom's amp is a sweetener and yours is grainy, why not get together and make oatmeal? If you want, you can try to find an amp that sounds fruity and you'll have a nice healthy, heart-friendly breakfast!
If only my good buddy Tom could see the humor, we'd all be laughing. Unfortunately, I think he continues to take this all rather personally.cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
What's really funny is that I have uglier, more heinous arguments than these with close friends! Then we laugh about 'em over cigars and scotch.I see Joey Porter is now a Fin and that other Joey is a free agent. Pretty good swap....
Kerr - I see Joey Porter is now a FinJoey Porter, I hate that guy, what a jackass. Oh wait, he's a Fin now?
Man I love that dudes attitude, heck of a player....LOLcheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
hahahaha - and it goes both ways. As a lifelong Vikings fan (now nominally a Colts fan due to geography) I like Daunte Culpepper better now that he's a Fin! Plenty of boats down there in Miami - and willing women as well, I suspect!
rw
I ask if the live music would be unamplified, acoustic music.Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
He kinda references it here like he's done before in this thread above http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/29549.htmlTG54 - amazing how the Mastersound Reference 845 sounds like live unamplified music
except he added some qualifiers this time. He almost never states whether it has to be connected to speakers, as if that would have any relevance :-).
Anyhow, doesn't look like it http://www.nsca.org/Expo/Attendees/EveningEvents/tabid/367/Default.aspx#2007ExpoJam
but maybe TomServo would be the better one to ask.cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
Tre' you'll have to forgive POLLYinFLA. He's such a bird-brain one needs to go into great detail when saying somthing as simple as: The Mastersound Reference 845 produces the closest replication of live, unamplified music I've ever heard!"First POLLYinFLA takes offense with this for some strange reason. I've never said the the Mastersound Reference 845 produces the closest replication of live, unamplified music of any amplifier made. What I've said is Mastersound Reference 845 produces the closest replication of live, unamplified music I've ever heard. POLLYinFLA doesn't seem capable of understanding the difference between those 2 statements.
Second I apparently gave old bird-brain credit for having too much intelligence. Sorry but I assumed the audiophiles/music lovers here at PHP would realize that I could not make the statement that an integrated amp like the Mastersound, produces the closest replication of live, unamplified music I've ever heard. Unless it was being used as intended. I almost never state it is connected to speakers, NOT because that doesn't have any relevance, but rather because I credited most readers with understanding it would have to be to make my statement :^)
But for idiots like POLLYinFLA I'll explain that in order to state that the Mastersound, produces the closest replication of live, unamplified music I've ever heard. That would presume a source, wires from the source to the Mastersound and then speaker wire to the speakers, as well as power cords to the source and integrated amp.
OK POLLYinFLA do you finally understand?
Thetubeguy1954
Why don't you explain to Tre how your Mastersound sounds just like live unamplified music when hooked to a pair of Bose or Radioshack speakers. After all, it is the amp that is responsible for this magnificent sound. Isn't it?cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
POLLYinFLA made another the idiotic post, as ONLY he could make. POLLYinFLA asked me: Why don't you explain to Tre how your Mastersound sounds just like live unamplified music when hooked to a pair of Bose or Radioshack speakers. After all, it is the amp that is responsible for this magnificent sound. Isn't it?I think Tre', unlike yourself understands in the end one hears a system as a whole. Obviously a system can only sound as good as it weakest link. The Mastersound Reference 845 integrated amp replicates the closest to live unamplified music that I've ever heard, period! Again, obviously the better the source (BlueNote Stibbert) the better the interconnects (Z-Squared Au/Au) the better the speaker wire (Nordost Blue Heaven) and the better the speakers (Aliante Pinafarina Ones) the better one will hear what the Mastersound is capable of.
Hooked up to Bose or Radioshack speakers as you propose will not make the Mastersound any less of an amp. What it will do is limit how much of the Mastersound's capabilities can be heard, due to the restrictions of the speakers you suggest using. This is why it took years (YES YEARS) of trying different interconnects, speakerwire, CD Players & speakers to get my system to where it is now. An analogy of what your proposing would be to take an exceptional dancer, (exceptional dancer = mastersound) restrict his capabilities by placing him in a closet, (restrict the mastersound's capabilities by connect Bose speakers) ridicule the person who declared he was the best dancer he'd ever seen, (person = me declaring the mastersound is the best I've heard) because in these circumstances he cannot dance exceptionaly (just like with Bose speakers attached the mastersound cannot sound the best I've ever heard)
What I cannot understand is how or why anyone could have a problem with my stating my opinion that he Mastersound Reference 845 integrated amp replicates the closest to live unamplified music that I've ever heard, period! Do you miss that I said that I'VE EVER HEARD? Never have I declared it's the best amp in the world, in fact I know you've read my inmates system because you've provided a link to it in your previous posts. Did you also miss where I said although I'm sure better exists, I haven't heard it as of yet.
Honestly POLLYinFLA only an idiot would try to make the arguement that because we hear a system as whole, we cannot know what the individual components "sound" like. Just like only an idiot would comment on the sonic traits of audio components they've never heard! Hey you do both of those things don't you?
OK, I understand. Inside joke.If the live music is amplified it has very little value as a reference.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
> If the live music is amplified it has very little value as a reference. <Except how would you then have any idea if your system was properly capturing Herb Ellis' plugged in Gibson ES-175 (or a host of other electric jazz guitarists) or Chick Corea's electric Fender Rhodes piano? Or Steve Swallow's electric bass? These guys are jazz performers. Sometimes you just gotta plug in!
Now if you're referring to heavy metal or rap or something, I would agree. But electricity alone does not mean the music cannot be used as a reference.
Hello Kerr,You addressed a good question when you responded to: If the live music is amplified it has very little value as a reference. With: Except how would you then have any idea if your system was properly capturing Herb Ellis' plugged in Gibson ES-175 (or a host of other electric jazz guitarists) or Chick Corea's electric Fender Rhodes piano? Or Steve Swallow's electric bass? These guys are jazz performers. Sometimes you just gotta plug in!
The reasoning behind this is actually quite simples. We use live unamplified music as our "Reference Standard" because it doesn't allow for additional components & wires to add their own distinct signature sound. So we use a variety of instruments & voices which have their own unique natural unamplified sonic characteristics. Typically I like to start with a piano, because it covers such a wide frequency range. Then I go for what I call "plucked" strings via listening to acoustic guitars, banjos, mandolins & stand up bass. This allows me to hear a fairly wide frequency range from the low bass to the high notes of a mandolin. Plus I get to hear the different harmonics of a guitar, mandolin & banjo. I also like to hear bowed strings via stand up bass, cello & violins as well. Next I go to brass with trumpets, saxes, trompones flutes. I don't know why but that's also when I listen to harmonicas. After that it's male & female voices from bass to sopranos. If we can get these to sound as close as we possibly can to what those instruments & vocals sound like, then we can rest assured that amplified music will be replicated as faithfully as possible!
So yes Kerr sometimes you just gotta plug in to hear Chick Corea's electric Fender Rhodes piano? Or Steve Swallow's electric bass? However to hear these outstanding jazz performers sound the best they can in our homes, you and I need to get the live unamplified sound correct first. Once you've/we've done that everything else just falls into place...
Thetubeguy1954
Now if you're referring to heavy metal or rap or something, I would agree. But electricity alone does not mean the music cannot be used as a reference.
> I don't know why but that's also when I listen to harmonicas. After that it's male & female voices from bass to sopranos <Interesting. A blues harmonica playing friend of mine likens his instrument to the human voice. However, any argument I might further make falls flat on its face because he blows into a microphone that is sealed against his lips, thereby creating the distortion that Chicago-style blues harpmeisters covet. Oh, well... it sounds good and it is after all the blues!
The reason I use the electric guitar is quite natural - I play it. Of course, I also play the acoustic but I'm primarily an electric player. It's the sound I'm used to and, of course, any electric guitarist can tell which Gibson, Fender or Gretsch someone is playing, along with its age - with a few years fudge factor one way or the other. Same goes with many amps. As with audio gear, I occasionally get fooled but not very often.
The flip side is that I agree with you and Tre that live unamplified music is the barometer. I go listen whenever I can and usually spend a few weeks a year in NYC jazz nightclubbing because I enjoy it and also to help re-calibrate the ol' ears. Stereo gear pales in comparison to live music... or even "dead" (recorded) music. Next time you and AJ trek up to Indiana, stop in and listen... OW! Tom! Stop hitting me! OUCH... I was KIDDING!!!! MOMMEEEEEE!!!! :)
Hi Kerr,That's interesting to know your harmonica playing friend equates his instrument to the human voice. I've found, and I'm curious if others here will agree with this statement, that the harmonica is a very difficult acoustic instrument to get to truly sound correct.
Kerr I don't know if you know who Howard Levy is but he's an incredible harmonica player. In Howard's hands the harmonica truly becomes an beautiful instrument. I'm having a brain fart right now because I cannot remember which song it is by him that I use to voice harmonicas. IIRC it's his version of Walking In Memphis on the CD Discovery by John Tesh that's incredible! Howard also plays a duet with Nelson Rangell on flute that I use to voice a system due to the complexity of the smooth, breathy sound of the flute accompanied by the raspy, woody yet also breathy sound of the harmonica. By breathy I mean the way you hear the wind blow through each instrument as they're being played.
As far as the next time I trek up to Indiana, I appreciate your invite to stop in and listen. I just cannot fathom the circumstances that would occur to possibly get me in a car with that pompous prick POLLYinFLA! Sorry Polly but this time you don't get a cracker. Seeing you for who you are i.e., a "man" who gets his enjoyment via ridiculing others and who'd rather provoke than intelligently discuss a topic, doesn't mean I'm angry when I call you what I know you are. At the same time it also means you're no one I'd care to ever know personally either.
Statute of Limitations has thankfully run its course! Ah, those were the days! No one cared if audio sounded like live music because we had no clue what live music sounded like - at least not what it sounded like without the blissful haze of dubage blasting through our noggins.Now it's scotch and an occasional Hennessey XO... and in MUCH smaller doses! :)
--
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
nt
I didn't say it can't be used as a reference. It can.But how do we know Herb Ellis had his tone controls set the exact same way on his Gibson ES-175 the night we saw him live as compared to when he was in the studio?
How do we know that Chick Corea is using the same electric Fender Rhodes piano not the one that had the speakers replaced?
A Baldwin piano is a Baldwin piano and a Martin D-28 is a Martin D-28...etc.
When acoustic music is used as a reference and the system passes the "test" I would think the electric stuff will come out right as well.
The system is either right or it's not. But using the electric stuff as a reference I don't know how one would ever be sure.
I think you can get my point.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
How do we know the mics on the Martin D-28 (and please stop using that as a point of reference - you're making my covet muscle re-develop!!!) or the Baldwin are the same?I get you point and I think you get mine. We have little basis for comparing live music, amplified or unamplified, with recorded - yet we continue. All we have is our hearing and our aural memory, bad as they may be. :)
> We have little basis for comparing live music, amplified or unamplified, with recorded - yet we continue. All we have is our hearing and our aural memory, bad as they may be. :)That why there are measurements, but those are useless to most audiophiles, right ;-)
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
"That why there are measurements, but those are useless to most audiophiles, right ;-)"Right!
You are joking, aren't you?
There are no measurements for the kind of things we are talking about. You can take two systems that measure the same but will sound (to the ear) very different.
Hell, a Yamaha receiver with Bose speakers measure OK. We are talking about the measurements one takes, with his ears, after all the bench measurements have been satisfied.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
> There are no measurements for the kind of things we are talking about. You can take two systems that measure the same but will sound (to the ear) very different.If they sound VERY different, some not all of the measurements will be VERY different.
> Hell, a Yamaha receiver with Bose speakers measure OK
They wouldn't measure OK not even in comparison to a Kef iQ5.
> We are talking about the measurements one takes, with his ears, after all the bench measurements have been satisfied.
As Peter Azcel would say, we listen with our ears but measure with instruments ;-).
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
"If they sound VERY different, some not all of the measurements will be VERY different."That is just not true.
Have a nice day.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Tre - If they sound VERY different, some not all of the measurements will be VERY different." That is just not true.Can you show me an example of this?
BTW, your site has no mention of the XO details for your JBL/Morel.
Can you shed some light on this? What XO frequency for the Tweeter/mid. I can't see the Morel going low enough to match the directivity of the mid unless output levels were severely restricted.
A 5" diameter cone should be getting directional about 900hz or so.
Any off axis measurements?Cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
Just ask Julian Hirsch. "They all sound the same. Oh, you mean small differences that only people who are paying attention can hear. I wasn't talking about those differences" From an interview with Peter Sutheim.Remember, small differences are big differences to audiophiles like me.
I don't believe you understand what I'm talking about. It's too subtle for you yet what we audiophools spend our time chasing.
List your system. I don't answer questions about my system for the likes of you. :-)
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Tre - Just ask Julian Hirsch.That may be difficult to do.
Tre - "They all sound the same. Oh, you mean small differences that only people who are paying attention can hear. I wasn't talking about those differences" From an interview with Peter Sutheim.
In other words, you have no example of 2 items measuring the same but sounding different. Ok, that's what I thought.
Tre - Remember, small differences are big differences to audiophiles like me.
Real or imagined?
Tre - I don't believe you understand what I'm talking about. It's too subtle for you yet what we audiophools spend our time chasing.
That is probably true.
Tre - List your system. I don't answer questions about my system for the likes of you. :-)
My system has an effect on *your* crossover and speaker design? Interesting.
cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
"In other words, you have no example of 2 items measuring the same but sounding different. Ok, that's what I thought."You missed it. JH is the God of you science types. He, dead now, for years claimed that amps that measures the same, sound the same. On Peter's show he admitted that the he did not pay attention to the "small differences" admitting they exist but beyond his scope.
So, think again.
"My system has an effect on *your* crossover and speaker design? Interesting."
And what does my system have to do with anything? We were not talking about my system, were we?What does my system have to do with systems that measure the same sounding the same?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Tre - You missed it.Missed what? I still see no example being offered, by you, of 2 components measuring the same but sounding different. Can you cite this real life example, or did you simply imagine it?
Tre - JH is the God of you science types.
He is? Wow, I wish I knew that, being agnostic and all. So if I'm a "science type", does that make you a "non-science" type? "anti-science" type? "Selective science type"? Do you drive a car? Fly in planes? Use a computer?
Hmmmm.
He, dead now, for years claimed that amps that measures the same, sound the same. On Peter's show he admitted that the he did not pay attention to the "small differences" admitting they exist but beyond his scope.I'm not quite sure what this has to do with you presenting 2 components that measure the same but sound different. Again, is this something you read, or do can you cite a real example for scrutiny?
Tre - And what does my system have to do with anything? We were not talking about my system, were we?
What does my system have to do with systems that measure the same sounding the same?Nothing. I saw your speakers on your website and asked the following:
AJ - BTW, your site has no mention of the XO details for your JBL/Morel. Can you shed some light on this? What XO frequency for the Tweeter/mid. I can't see the Morel going low enough to match the directivity of the mid unless output levels were severely restricted.
A 5" diameter cone should be getting directional about 900hz or so.
Any off axis measurements?I'm a speaker builder and was interested. Perhaps you found the questions offensive or they somehow made you uncomfortable? My apologies. No offense intended, just curiosity. Nice drivers overall IMHO, but XO is the glue that holds it all together.
cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
Can you show me two amplifiers that are different but measure the same (that is, no differences that would account for them sounding different) and sound the same?I'll make it easier. Can you show me two amplifiers that sound the same?
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I have heard differences between CD players that measure, for all intent and purposes, the same.
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So tell me about the JBL 2118. I'm not a speaker guy but the JBL seems to act like a big tweeter. Can you elaborate? (I'm asking you to tell me what I'm saying) Thanks.
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Please show the math for speaker beaming. I understand that once the wave length is shorter than the diameter of the cone beaming will occur. I'm sure there is more to it than that. Thanks._________________________________________________________________
I'm an engineer who understands that, when it comes to audio, we still don't know what to measure.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I'm an engineer who understands that, when it comes to audio, we still don't know what to measure.Many times a product measures well and is considered done. Trained listeners observe that it sounds like crap. Those guys go back to the drawing board and lo and behold, they "find" something they ignored before to explain the observations.
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
> But electricity alone does not mean the music cannot be used as a reference.
It can be used as a reference, but not as a reference of live UNAMPLIFIED music, because it is AMPLIFIED ;-).
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
> It can be used as a reference, but not as a reference of live UNAMPLIFIED music, because it is AMPLIFIED ;-). <Drat those subtleties! :)
And then there's the problem of listening to a guitarist using an amp on the recording that clashes with the amp you're listening through at home! :)
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