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70.46.7.90
In Reply to: Re: Chip Amp Voicing Is Definitely Dominated By POLLYinFLA's Disastrous Decision! posted by theaudiohobby on March 5, 2007 at 10:46:52:
Hobby,You stated that I missed the key point, the effects of an equalizer on any given system are independently MEASURABLE. While I'm quite sure that you're correct Hobby about the the effects of an equalizer on any given system being independently MEASURABLE. I see the point as being more one of just because it's measureable that doesn't mean it automatically a good thing. So the point I was attempting to make is should we just accept POLLYinFLA & Behringer's word that the ULTRACURVE PRO DEQ2496 is a component that offers ...extremely high audio performance (which) makes it ideal for audiophile mastering and PA purposes? As you stated it's measureable, but is it use detrimental or advantagous?
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Next Hobby you said: Look at the instructions that accompany the Ultra-Curve Pro DSP8024, specifically look at pages 22 -24 under Section called application, the device is not supposed to be used between the preamplifier and the power amplifier, but BEFORE the preamplifier, i.e. the equalizer should always receive a full signal, another point, did you adjust the input sensitivity accordingly to obtain optimum results, this point pretty much makes placing the equalizer between between the amplifier and the preamplifier a no-no if optimal results are to be obtained, the same should also apply to the DEQ2496.I'll readily admit I just assumed it was placed between the preamp & amplifier. It's quite possible I am mistaken and will need to ask the owner if that's how it was inserted or if it was done as Behringer suggested in their manuel. Truth be told I cannot answer your question of did the owner adjust the input sensitivity accordingly to obtain optimum results? I will say I believe he did as he's a professional recording engineer and gets pretty picky about those types of things. What I can state as fact is it was immediately noticable in the system even when set to flat and it wasn't an improvement but rather detrimental to the sound. Last thing I knew the owner had removed it completely & has kept it out since then to the best of my knowledge.
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Finally Hobby you ended your post with with to comments: 1) I will answer the response on Peter Aczel in detail in the next few days. Ok I'll look forward to your response.2) You also suggest that I drop this name-calling business as it is not condusive for rational discussion. I agree with you Hobby it's not condusive for rational discussion. However I hope you'll agree it's just as detrimental for rational discussion when you talk about my intelligence, question my character and suggesting I need physiatric help. As for POLLYinFLA I originally posted to him in a very civil manner, but his first few posts were filled with disparaging comments that refered to my amp as an euphonic noise generator, my speakers as floppy little cones and IIRC refering to me as Tubeboob. He constantly talks about my needing therapy etc. I cannot find one post POLLYinFLA has ever written me that was a rational conversation. Most of his posts are either pathetic attempts a humor with personal digs or just plain ridiculing the person he's posting to and their audio components. As you've now hopefully seen, I address people in the manner they address me.
In any event, I'll be looking forward to your comments on Aczel.
Thetubeguy1954
Follow Ups:
Actually tubeguy the DEQ 2496 works extremely well as long as you use it digital in/digital out only. I also recommend using it with a couple of jitte boxes on the input and output. That being said the built in DAC in stock condition is OK but easily bettered. However; bypassing all the opamps inside and transformer coupling it out apparently works very well. The ADC that is built in is also OK, not studio quality but not half bad either. I had the cheaper 8024 and it is really no comparison, the DEQ 2496 is vastly superior in terms of function and sound quality. The 8024 used with analog inputs is a disaster (if you get the optional digital in and out it is not too bad actually).
That the DEQ might actually improve the sound of TG54's system, including his Aliantes with no baffle step filter in his non-anechoic room? Surely you jest? What about the collapsed sound stage and grit, grain, etc?
IIRC, he has some sort of CD player that deliberately measures poorly in order to sound good, so I'm not sure if he even has a digital out to use. Perhaps my good pal Tom can answer that one.
Great little cheap toy for "voicing" IMHO.cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
POLLYinFLA,Ignorantly states in his typical fashion that I (TG1954) have some sort of CD player that deliberately measures poorly in order to sound good, so POLLY's not sure if I (TG1954) even has a digital out to use.
First POLLYinFLA yes the BlueNote Stibbert most definitely has a digital out! Second how you the pompous, parroting proclaimer of poorly perceived putrid proclamations perchance pretended that the Stibbert purposely performs poorly in order to sound good, is just another fine example of more bird-brained banter of King POLLYinFla! I guess the bird brain considers these to be the measurements of a CD player, that measures poorly in order to sound good...
SPECIFICATIONS: DIMENSIONS: 550mm L x 250mm H x 450mm D - WEIGHT: Kg. 12,00 - FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 4Hz - 44KHz @ +/- 1dB - THD (Total Harmonic Distortion): 0,0001% Max. - SIGNAL-NOISE RATIO: 118dB - DYNAMIC RESPONSE: 127dB - SPEED FLUCTUATION: 0,0001% Max. - CONTROL DIGITAL SYSTEM: Zero-Clock™ - DAC: PCM1704 - DIGITAL OUTPUT: 75 ohms RCA connector - ANALOG OUTPUT: STEREO RCA + XLR connectors - POWER SUPPLY: Electro-Power™ 100/260Volt 50/60Hz electronic.
Sorry Tom, I think I confused you talking about some wacky unfiltered Kobiashi (sp?) CD player that you said measured bad so must sound good as your actual CD player. My bad.
Now what the hell is all that crap?cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
Yes POLLYinFLA, you definitely confused a previous converstion with about a CDP that measures poorly yet is supposed to sound very good. In any event the photo is the highly regarded Blue Note Stibbert, which is what I use. All that crap were the measurements you so love to rely on.Pondering & perusing the Stibbert's performance prior to posting this page of paranoid parrot proclimations could have possibly prevented POLLYinFLA's pathetic position, permiting him perchance to parlay this portion of his putrid plan & possibly prepare a path out when mistaken as his is... Alas he's but a bumbling bird-brain beaten before beginning because as he says... He confused what I was talking about! Here's a tip, take time, think, then talk!
I like those, although you consider them useless and meaningless, because we really can't measure everything, so we might as well measure nothing and just listen with the trusty ol' ghost hearing measurement devices only, the ears.
No, I was talking about all that crap around the CD drawer. Is that cube like a Borg ship, where it's picked up all that other junk or is the entire thing the cd player? Is that some sort of clamp?
Now another question for you. How would that Dilbert thing have improved upon the sound of Dr Geddes RMAF demo if substituted for the $50 Costco Toshiba? http://gedlee.com/downloads/Observations and Thoughts.pdf
TG54's thoughts and observations?cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
POLLYinFLAConcerning the specs of the Stibbert you commented: I like those, although you consider them useless and meaningless, because we really can't measure everything, so we might as well measure nothing and just listen with the trusty ol' ghost hearing measurement devices only, the ears.
Once again POLLYinFLA you're succeeding only in showing your stupidity and arrogance. Not one subjectivist person I know believes ALL measurements are meaningless. This is unfortunately your poor mistaken impression of what subjectivists believe. Your mistaken postion is further clarified when to add your comment of: because we really can't measure everything, so we might as well measure nothing and just listen with the trusty ol' ghost hearing measurement devices only, the ears. But lo & behold even Dr. Linkwitz, the man whose speaker design you bastardized in an attempt to "improve" it uses his ears and trusted the ears of a friend OVER measurements to make final improvements when voicing his Orions. So why would you use this design or use some variation of it, "IF" using the ear as the final arbitrator is such a heinous thing as you appear to suggest? You're a real hypocrite POLLYinFLA, you use a variation of speakers that were finally voiced by trusting the ear and then you ridicule everyone else who does that exact same thing!
What subjectivists believe is there should be a measurement for EVERYTHING we hear. It's an unfortunate state of affairs that today's measurements as they're typically used in audio correlate very little with what we hear. Ask Tom Danley about that Polly! So POLLYinFLA as you're the one who bows at the altar of measurements, please tell me which measurement defines how high a soundstage will be? Which measurement defines how wide a soundstage will be? Which measurement defines how deep a soundstage will be? Which measurement defines how much "air" will be heard around the performers & instruments? Which measurement defines what a components resolution capabilities are? What measurement defines a components imaging capabilities? These are all important to me so please tell which measurements I need to read and how to interpret them. If you do that I'll use them, I promise! But until you do so I'll have to trust MY ears, not some ghost's ears.
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POLLYinFLA continues with: No, I was talking about all that crap around the CD drawer. Is that cube like a Borg ship, where it's picked up all that other junk or is the entire thing the cd player? Is that some sort of clamp?I'm quite sure you don't really care about this CDP at all but instead are yet again attempting to ridicule or provoke me. However in case anyone does care. The BlueNote Stibbert's actual CDP itself is the gray box that hangs down from the black acrylic plinth. It is completely isolated via 4 conical springs. The main plinth of the CD player chassis, just as the Bluenote analog record players, is made of a 20mm thick black acrylic shaped like the Ferrari Formula 1 steering wheel. This special shape, was purposely designed to have totally non-parallel edges, which increases enormously the structural rigidity. The implementation of the design is to virtually eliminate any vibration feedback.
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Now POLLYinFLA I don't know why you insist on asking me questions like: How would that Stibbrt have improved upon the sound of Dr Geddes RMAF demo if substituted for the $50 Costco Toshiba?As I've told you numerous times in the past, unlike you I don't comment on audio components I haven't heard. I will admit that if there wasn't a marked improvement that was immediately noticeable when inserting the Stibbert in place of a $50 Toshiba CDP, I'd be shocked! I can tell you this much because I heard it for myself, the Stibbert made a marked improvement when it replaced the Audiomecca KEOPS CDP I was previously using. The Audiomecca KEOPS also made a marked improvement when it replaced the CAL DX2 I used before it. As for the difference between a $50 Toshiba and the $5000 Stibbert I BELIEVE it would be so dramatic that even you'd comment about the differences heard. However until I heard it for myself I cannot promise it would be so, but I believe it would be so with all my heart.
"I like those, although you consider them useless and meaningless, because we really can't measure everything, so we might as well measure nothing and just listen with the trusty ol' ghost hearing measurement devices only, the ears."Yep, you captured the foolishness that pervades thinking of many on this board.
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
Who in the world... or just on this board ... thinks we should measure nothing at all in audio??? It's a statement that is so far beyond ridiculous that I find it hard to believe anyone feels that way.
"So the point I was attempting to make is should we just accept POLLYinFLA & Behringer's word that the ULTRACURVE PRO DEQ2496 is a component that offers ...extremely high audio performance (which) makes it ideal for audiophile mastering and PA purposes? "Are you suggesting that they cease to market their products with favourable language, they are not making any outlandish claims for their product nor do they judge their product to have a performance that is impossible to capture by measurment, if their liberal use of the word "high audio performance" does not meet your expectation then you move on, I do not see why there is a problem here.
"I'll readily admit I just assumed it was placed between the preamp & amplifier. It's quite possible I am mistaken and will need to ask the owner if that's how it was inserted or if it was done as Behringer suggested in their manuel. Truth be told I cannot answer your question of did the owner adjust the input sensitivity accordingly to obtain optimum results? I will say I believe he did as he's a professional recording engineer and gets pretty picky about those types of things. What I can state as fact is it was immediately noticable in the system even when set to flat and it wasn't an improvement but rather detrimental to the sound. ."
Well, the DSP8026 is a relatively complex beast, it certainly a'int plug n' play, learning how to use it pays dividends. And flat is about the worst setting you can use, the manual advices against using 'flat' response for many situations, so using the 'flat' setting as a benchmark for performance is misleading and not necessarily indicative of the performance of the unit.
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
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