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In Reply to: I've already proven it! posted by kerr on February 6, 2007 at 07:29:03:
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____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Follow Ups:
Pat D,You seem to mistakenly believe that others MUST prove things to you. No one here needs to prove anything to anyone but themself. Once they have listened and deteremined for themselves they hear a difference their "job" is done. If they like what they've heard and feel it's an improvement they may at that time wish to share it with others here. If someone here reads these comments and wants proof of what they say they've heard, that person who want proof, needs to get of their lazy ass and provide the proof they need for themself.
Anytime an audio component or tweak is added to a system there either will or won't be a noticeable difference. In the event that a difference is heard it can either be a detrimental or an improvement. Since everyones hearing is different no one but yourself can determine whether or not your individual ear/brain combo is sensitive enough to hear what another individual can hears. In addition only you can decide for yourself if the change (if any) is detrimental or an improvement to you as an individual.
Pat D you always want to take the unproveable null postion. Then you demand others provide prove what they say is true. You seem to feel that others have some burden or obligation to prove what they hear to you. However I say once they've told you want they've heard they've done all they need to, i.e. they've shared a potential improvement with you. If you want or need proof, before accepting the validity of their post, then get off your lazy behind, do some leg-work and get it for yourself! No one is under any burden or obligation to provide you with proof of anything. If you don't wish to accept their comments about a potential improvement you can make to your audio system... don't! If you want proof of their comments then get it for yourself.
Thetubeguy1954
"Pat D you always want to take the unproveable null postion. Then you demand others provide prove what they say is true. You seem to feel that others have some burden or obligation to prove what they hear to you."Nope. You still haven't got it right, but then at this point I can only conclude you aren't interested in doing so.
The burden of proof is on the person make the claim of audible differences. For example, you so far have failed to prove you can hear the difference between your expensive Nordost cables and ordinary heavy gauge speaker wires. That's the fact. You apparently don't like it but that's the fact.
I am not making unlikely claims of audible differences. Therefore, I don't have any to prove.
As to whether anyone has an obligation to provide proof to others, well, yes, sometimes they do have an obligation. Many products are subject to strict standards. I dare say the prescription drugs you use have been subject to rigorous testing and approved by a government body.
As to how this would apply to audio, well, the FTC doesn't seem interested in claims for audio products beyond amplfiers performance and such things. But some have plausibly argued that claims for the improved audio performance of special and expensive audio interconnects and speaker cables, among other things, would technically come under the jurisdiction of the FTC as far as manufacturers and sellers are concerned.
Now, neither I nor anyone else has the time to determine whether every product on the market makes an audible difference, we all have to choose which ones to try out. One can try to do so on the basis of reliable information or not.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat D replies to my comment "Pat D you always want to take the unproveable null postion. Then you demand others provide prove what they say is true. You seem to feel that others have some burden or obligation to prove what they hear to you." With this response: Nope. You still haven't got it right, but then at this point I can only conclude you aren't interested in doing so.I have it 100% right Pat. Neither I nor anyone else here is under and burden or obligation to provide you or anyone else with any proof, period. Your constant rant that The burden of proof is on the person (who) make(s) the claim of audible differences. is incorrect. Your claiming we have to provide you with proof does NOT make it a true statement. As I told you before when I or anyone else here on PHP talks about an improvement we've heard, we've done all that we need to, i.e. share with you and others a way to possibly improve your audio system. You can either accept what we've said or you can reject it until you have proof it works. But if you require proof it's up to you o' lazy one to provide that proof for yourself. Absolutely no one is under any burden or obligation to provide it for you.
For example, Pat you want so desperately to believe I have failed to prove I can hear the difference between my Nordost cables and ordinary heavy gauge speaker wires. But once again, as is typical of you, you're wrong. I have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that I definitely hear the difference between my Nordost cables and ordinary heavy gauge speaker wires to the ONLY person to whom this really matters, me! That's a fact you apparently don't like to hear, but Pat it's the fact non the less. If on the otherhand you'd like proof of this fact for yourself, I'll suggest yet once again that you get off your lazy ass, do the legwork and provide it for yourself. We all know of of course you'll have 100's of excuses why you won't or shouldn't have to do this. But PLEASE understand I'm under to obligation to provide you with any proof of anything.
Pat you rightly state that because you're not making any claims of audible differences, that means you don't have anything to prove. I'd like to point out this is just par for the course for you. You ALWAYS take the unproveable null postion and then demand others provide proof to you. Sorry Pat but I and apparently many others here have grown weary of your constant demands. If you want proof, find it for yourself.
As to whether anyone has an obligation to provide proof to others, your mistaken when you claim (concerning audiophiles) well, yes, sometimes they do have an obligation. You try to support your postion by using example that have absolutely nothing to do with what we're discussing. We're talking about music lovers expressing their opinions on what makes an improvement in their audio system and whether or not they're obligated to prove what they hear to you. In a lame attempt to "prove" you're due this proof you're always demanding of others you use the example of the FDA making a drug company provide proof their new drug (which could possibly kill someone) is safe... how pathetic you're getting. I tell you what Pat when you can prove that some music lovers tweak is possibly life threating if attempted by others, I'll agree they should provide proof of it's safety before others attempt to duplicate what they've heard. However in the meantime please attempt your misleading prescription drug analogy with someone else who takes the bait more easily than I do.
You can also take your FTC arguement and shelve it until the FTC comes down on your side. For as you stated the FTC doesn't seem interested in claims for audio products beyond amplfiers performance and such things. One can argue that claims for the improved audio performance of special and expensive audio interconnects and speaker cables, among other things, would technically come under the jurisdiction of the FTC as far as manufacturers and sellers are concerned, but until that happens it's a moot point. You just need to actually do something besides constantly taking the unprovable null point and get up off your lazy behind and prove things to yourself for yourself.
Like you Pat I don't have the time to determine whether every product on the market makes an audible difference. So do what I've been telling you to do. Get off your lazy ass choose which ones you wish to try out and provide the proof you need for yourself. Just stop demanding everyone else do for you what you're too damn lazy to do for yourself! We don't owe you anything. Consider it a blessing that we share what we klearn with you in the first place...
Thetubeguy1954
> If you don't wish to accept their comments about a potential improvement you can make to your audio system... don't! <We share these improvements in the hope that they may enrich someone else's life as they have enriched ours. If someone doesn't care to try it, it's their loss, not mine.
See, the real issue isn't whether or not WE hear any differences - it's whether the person demanding the proof will. For that, they will have to try it themselves, not worry about what other people can and can't hear. I've proven what I hear to the one person whose requirements, preferences and abilities I'm forced by either divine intervention or fate to worry most about - me!
nt
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