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In Reply to: Re: I know. I got to church... posted by troy@questaudiosystems.com on January 13, 2007 at 22:27:30:
Thanks for your post! Troy. I've seen 2500 seat churches reinforced successfully with one, (1) uno, plane wave EV horn loaded three way speaker system. I've seen 5000 seat auditoriums successfully reinforced with a pair of Altec 604 coaxial speakers in Altec baffles. Maybe I should have been more cogent with I said "speaker" and should have said "speaker system". I'm in the high efficiency, horn loaded, speaker system camp and also in the Class A output stage camp. I feel that a speaker with less than 96db/1watt/1meter rating is suitable for casual living and bath and bed rooms for muzak and tv set maybe but not for professional sound reinforcement.But on a more complete level I feel that the average professional sound reinforcement installation that I have witnessed, most have been jobs that have been sold by the likes of a P.T. Barnum than any capable acoustic or audio engineer. I believe that most people selling audio equipment are there to make a profit foremost. There is nothing wrong with making a profit but it has become our cause celebre over whether or not the installation sounds good.
The best audio I have ever head were installations that were crafted by Westrex (Western Electric) or RCA acoustic engineers in conjunction with Fox and Metro motion picture theaters through the 60's. There after audio quality in so called professional installations took a nose dive. Theater owners then put up whatever cheap speaker and amp some P.T.Barnum sold them. I feel that the contributions of people like Alexis Badmeiff, Paul Klipsch, Rudy Bozak, John Volkman, Pop Harry Olson are as timeless as the Pythagorean theorum. In short they wrote the book of high fidelity and sound reinforcement. And it was written early like in 1939. The old school is the best school! Very little is new! Cordially, Ray
"I take you as you are
And make of you what I will,
Skunk-bear, carcajou, bloodthirsty
Non-survivor.
Lord, let me die but not die out." THE LAST WOLVERINE by James Dickey
Follow Ups:
I can appreciate your being disenchanted with most of todays major manufacturers of pro audio speakers( i'm with you). I can appreciate your respect for some of the older equipment that was truly ahead of its time. I have own several pairs of the Altec 604s and can tell you that they absolutely cannot produce hign enough spl for a 5000 seat auditorium. Even if they could you still missed the point, which is that you would have to play them very loudly for sound to reach those sitting at the back. Because of the distance you would have too much of a drop in volume by the time the sound reached the back, and the people up front would be blasted. Even the best sounding, high effeciency, cone speaker is yet subject to the inverse square law. Then there is the matter of horizontal dispersion. You would probably need a horizontal dispersion pattern of at least 120 degrees in order to cover the width of a 5000 seat auditorium. Maybe the 604s successfully reinforced the area i which you were sitting but the laws of physics make it impossibe for them to do so if you were sitting anywhere other than the 1st few rows of seating. I have removed the 604s from at least 5 installs, kept them and ran them at their max. They cannot successfully reinforce a 5000 seat room. Even if you stacked them the waveguides are not isophasic, so you would have severe comb filtering and lobing issues.
Don't allow your disdain for the "major manufacturers to close your mind to the fact that there are some smaller innovative companies that have designed speaker systems as good an better than some of the older ones. Older is not always better and neither is newer but I try to keep an open mind, or I might miss out on somethig that sounds great.
You're probably correct in your assumptions. The fact reamins that it was done. With two Dukane vacumn tube 30 watt PA amps one driving each Altec 604, one each side of the proscenium at the Bell auditorium in Augusta Georgia. It can accommodate a colleiate basket ball game with two balconys. The fact remains that most 3000 seat auditoriums with three and four balconys that ran motion pictures did so with one, uno, (1) loudspeaker system behind a perforated screen and a heavy valour velvet curtain and still reinforced the entire room even with the curtain closed. They did it with one 30 watt vacumn tube power amp some of them Class A. They didn't need a electronic three way crossover, three equalizers and three amps with a killowatt each of output power. Now I'm not saying that there was equal sound pressure measurements above 96db at every frequency across the entire breath of the span. But no one complained that it was too loud or that they couldn't hear. In fact it didn't sound very bad at all and my ears were young at the time. It's interesting that when symphony orchestras come to my home town to give a concert they insist that the PA system be turned OFF! I for one am certainly glad that they insist this. Cordially, Ray
"I take you as you are
And make of you what I will,
Skunk-bear, carcajou, bloodthirsty
Non-survivor.
Lord, let me die but not die out." THE LAST WOLVERINE by James Dickey
My dad (in his early 60s) doesn't like bass or treble either. Give him good old AM radio bandwidth and he's happy.
That's a good one.
...but it sure as heck better be good. No direct radiator woofer trying to reproduce 20 hz, bottoming out and forcing an ClassAB amp into clipping and slew rate limiting. There is very little information down at 20hz anyway. There is also no such thing IMHO as a "constant directivity" horn. I don't like them. I also don't like metal horns that ring! That's just me. Give me a tractrix wood horn anyday! Ray
"I take you as you are
And make of you what I will,
Skunk-bear, carcajou, bloodthirsty
Non-survivor.
Lord, let me die but not die out." THE LAST WOLVERINE by James Dickey
I was referring to your mention of the sound system being behind a curtain. What a great way to kill the very top end. Of course if you don't use real CD horns then you don't have even dispersion of the very highs anyway. I do understand what you are saying. I do audio for a living and I find that the average person wants to hear voices above all else. But the concert enthusiasts and disco dancers love the "boom and sizzle". There's often a wide technical gap between the two. And so many systems sound lousy trying either. Usually I find it comes down to money. A well designed and implemented system often costs more and doesn't look as cool as a brute force install. Sure there are snake oil sales going on but there are also uneducated customers who demand something that they don't need or want something they can't afford.
And there's no accounting for taste;)Is there a chance that the sound tracks of the past had audiences who were better at listening?
Well put.
"Is there a chance that the sound tracks of the past had audiences who were better at listening?"No, I don't think they were better at listening. I think that most people who buy sound systems think their sound salesman knows what he is doing and talking about when in reality few do. The customer just wants the problem solved and they don't care how it's solved. Fox, Metro, Warner, and FP Lasky theaters used university trained EE and acousticians, Western Electric and RCA engineers to set up a theater. They knew what they were doing. Plane wave horns haven't advanced very much because they are big and people equate big with "Old". There is also a feeling that there must be a more modern way of doing things. "That which is new must be BETTER!" Bruce Edgar in California and the people at Klipsch are the only ones that I know of still building and selling folded horns. It's till the most efficient form of speaker and IMHO produces the least amount of distortion. They are big and unsightly and too often the room decor votes them out. It depends on what the priorities are and sound quality has IMHO taken a back seat. Cordially, Ray Hughes
"I take you as you are
And make of you what I will,
Skunk-bear, carcajou, bloodthirsty
Non-survivor.
Lord, let me die but not die out." THE LAST WOLVERINE by James Dickey
Let me put my question into a better context. My experience has been that actual spl levels are very subjective, especially to the untrained ear. So often I find that what seemed plenty loud with no crowd and no adrenalin before a show feels weak and uninspired when the show is going. I've found that for a lot of clients, no matter how loud it is, if you can't hear the voice then it's not loud enough. And if you don't like the style of music then it's always too loud;) It seems that we hear in a relative manner. If the background noise goes up then whatever it is that we are focussing on needs to go up with it.My question was about whether audiences were quieter and maybe more attentive to the theater program as they weren't surrounded by noise and chaos like folks are today? I understand that theater soundtracks of that era were edited mixed and mastered using an industry standard db scale similar to Bob Katz's K metering system. This scale was followed all the way to the theaters so it ensured that the volume level in theaters was very close to the level used when it was mastered. What a wonderful concept. Humans don't hear things the same at different volume levels and so by keeping level consistent it creates a more consistent experience for audience members. I wonder as well if this led to more pleasant soundtracks than we often have today.?
As far as advancement of the art, yes it does appear to be rather limited. But it seems that there hasn't been an economic incentive to advance it. Sure there's a fair number of dollars in portable music players but public address systems have found a bouyant point where most people are happy with this status quo. There simply isn't as much money to be made in audio design and installation as there is in other fields. I don't know that many contractors (sound salesmen to you) can afford to keep fully university trained EE's on staff. I suppose there was a stronger collective "brain" in the industry back then but there are some smart cookies today too.
Btw, I think people like Tom Danley and Dave Gunness have made some interesting advancements in recent years. There's lots of research still going on in Europe and compression drivers and woofers have made good strides in the past 10 years as well. Further, there are lots of Pro-Sound companies making "folded horns". In fact I've seen a resurgence in folded bass horns in the past few years partly because of the better woofers now available to drive them. I'm not sure what the old altecs really sounded like but a lot of Pro-Sound speaker systems on the market today are tremendously better than they were 10 or 15 years ago (lower distortion, better power response, etc).
Thank you! Probably each room would have it's unique equalization curve much like the Fletcher-Munsen equal loudness curves. My limited experience with 70mm, 6 track mo pic sound installations revealed that intelligibility was greatly affected by equalization. I don't believe you can design for flat response. If you do the human voice will sound tinny and unintelligible.I believe that sound systems should be designed into the room by an acoustical engineer and architect when the building is being designed. Preferably they should be led by a musician-artist, not a committee. Built in very much the same way a pipe organ is tuned, honed or carved into a church as an integral part of the architecture; not an appendage that is stuck on the wall. The organist supervises it's installation. Sound systems are, by and large, after the fact additions. But architects and engineers can make BIG mistakes! Look at Avery Fisher Hall in New York. An orchestra there sounds like it is in the next county! The PA system there in the lobby sounds better than center seat, center isle. I would much rather attend Carnegie Hall! Maybe such buildings should be equipped with headphone systems where discerning audiophiles could bring their headphones and have a volume control-joystick to suit their tastes. They do it for the deaf!
It is good to know that folded horns are still being developed in Europe. Maybe they can teach us something.
I'm just a lover of fine music not liking what I hear in most professional sound installations. I would like to feel that I'm not alone, but most people just don't care. Cordially, Ray Hughes
"I take you as you are
And make of you what I will,
Skunk-bear, carcajou, bloodthirsty
Non-survivor.
Lord, let me die but not die out." THE LAST WOLVERINE by James Dickey
They are not assumptions but rather facts based on the physics of sound. Just because it was "done" does not mean it was done right, or "successfully", as you said in an earlier post. I hope you are not suggesting that just because no one complained that it was too loud or that they couldn't hear to you that this alone means that it was "reinforced successfully". The truth is that many people would not have complained about a significant difference in spl between the front and rear seating areas years ago because it was the norm which there was nothing to compare it to. It was the accepted standard at that time; not now. By the way two Altec 604s would not provide equal sound pressure measurements above 96db at even one frequency across the entire breath of the span of a 3000 or 5000 seat room. What you don't seem to get is that no single driver ever made to date could accomplish that. The physics of sound were the same back and have not changed. Again as you move away from any speaker (other than a line array), the spl will (I repeat "will") drop 6dB ever time the distance is doubled. If there is a significant drop in spl at the rear of a room then it was not "reinforced successfully". Or maybe I should say not by todays standards. I have designed and built speaker systems for many large rooms, and I have achieved uniform spl from front to back in every one, while maintaining high fidelity and intelligibilty for both speech and music.
I mean all that I say respectfully, though in print it may not seem so.
I'm a lover of fine, serious music. Classical, opera, film, jazz, choral, folk. I DETEST rock music with a passion! I don't want to be deafened. I want the sound experience to be realistic NOT LOUD. And I feel that most professional installations in recent theaters and shows that I have spent good money to buy tickets, fall flat on their faces as providing this realistic and enjoyable sound experience. I don't know what tables or calculations these designers are using but they leave me COLD, FATIGUED and desperately wanting to leave and ask for my money back. I have spent much money on my hi-fi system. I build and design a lot of my own equipment from scratch and I've been at it since I was seven and I'm now 58. I love ever micro second of a good audio experience. And yes, I recently had my hearing checked and it's fine!Now you can call me a dinosaur, an old foggey, or any appropriate adjective you might conjur up but I believe the current audio philosophy of designing professional installations is heavily flawed. They are deigning basically for ROCK installations. To basically SHAKE THE WALLS. I hope you live to the ripe old age where your hearing is fully intact. But if you stay around such installations then I fear your hearing is gravely in jeopardy. Cordially again. Ray Hughes
"I take you as you are
And make of you what I will,
Skunk-bear, carcajou, bloodthirsty
Non-survivor.
Lord, let me die but not die out." THE LAST WOLVERINE by James Dickey
You may not want to hear it from me, but I believe that the basic definitions that both of you are using of "reinforcing" a 5000 seat auditorium are different. The fact is that some churches only need small speaker systems and little power because all they reinforce is a pastor and maybe a choir, while others put on something resembling a rock concert production every sunday that requires much more power and many more speakers to reinforce. I think the original question could have been much better answered by asking for more specifics on what the system would be used for.
Also, many installed PA systems don't have the capacity to reinforce an orchestra, and if an orchestra needs to be reinforced then it's not much of an orchestra. Their aim is to fill a room with sound, to be fully balanced with proper tone without any outside alteration to their sound.
"Their aim is to fill a room with sound"Yes, by and large, distorted sound that is blurred, amorphous and smeared. This is driven by the business mode to sell. They want to sell speakers. The more they sell the better! I don't have anything to sell. MORE IS BETTER! SIZE MATTERS! Like a tone deaf rockster who took the Johnny three chord guitar course, now calls him/her self a "musician" and can't surround themselves with enough power and/or speakers. They have learned to like distortion. They have been mushroomed in a culture of distortion. But they and I know what I like and it a free country, unless G.W. decides to make himself KING.
Personally, I wouldn't attend a church that allowed secular musical instruments into God's house. But that's just me. I'm a traditionalist and I believe that MORE is not always the answer. Sometimes LESS is MORE! Making a joyful noise might go a little too far and certainly can be SECULAR!
"I take you as you are
And make of you what I will,
Skunk-bear, carcajou, bloodthirsty
Non-survivor.
Lord, let me die but not die out." THE LAST WOLVERINE by James Dickey
I meant the aim of an orchestra, not of a PA system.
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, I guess. My father said basically the same thing about the music I played when I started out 40 years ago, and his father before him no doubt said the same thing about those crazy jitterbuggers and that cacophony called 'jazz'. No doubt there were many opera fans who were aghast when that young upstart Mozart came along. In fact, I think it was Wolfgang Amadeus himself who first coined the phrase: "If it's too loud you're too old".
I agree with Louis Armstrong. "There are two types of music; good and bad!"I can listen to everything from Mozart to country as long as it's good and realistic without distortion. From Schubert's 9th in one listening segment to Ricky Skaggs in the next. But I don't like distortion which is being sold as GOOD! And if I go to one of those churches for a wedding or funeral, I'll certainly bring my earplugs. And most "roadie" traveling shows are awful as well!
"I take you as you are
And make of you what I will,
Skunk-bear, carcajou, bloodthirsty
Non-survivor.
Lord, let me die but not die out." THE LAST WOLVERINE by James Dickey
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