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Ok, compare and contrast question. I'm trying to improve recording sound of vocal ensembles (too big to mic individually). Narrowed my choices down to three microphones (don't discuss others, that's only confusing and not helpful). Shure SM81, AKG c-1000S, AKG c-451B. Can anybody help me make the choice with personal experience or examples of positives and negatives about these three? Thanks
Follow Ups:
You should use the microphone which has the best pickup pattern and frequency response characteristics for the particular venue and ensemble, taking into account the size of the ensemble and acoustics of the space, as well as the type of sound you wish to have on the recording, and whether or not the mics output will also be coming through the monitors or PA.Another angle you need to consider is the amount of signal processing you want to do later on the recording. The more SP you want to do, the closer and more directional your mics should be, and the drier the environment should be.
In other words, you haven't provided enough information for anyone to make specific recommendations, and you never can. Each situation is different. You've narrowed it down to 3 mics. Make a decision! How did you get this job, anyway?
Thought I’d drop in over here—Yeah, yeah, yeah—you said not to, but I’m going to confuse you anyway with more choices… *evil grin*Look into the following:
AKG 441 with its changeable patterns is a standard.
The ‘old’ C 451 series is a workhorse and multi-purpose.
The Schoeps system is mo’ bettah than AKG, but mo’ $$$$.00
If you are going to look into PZM’s, see both the Crown line and TRAM.
TRAM, one of the better vocal mics, can be used as a PZM. They are predominately used as one of the standard vocal mics in the film industry, either hardwired or wireless.
http://www.trammicrophones.com/
No connection w/TRAM, other than being a satisfied user.Finally, IMHO, one of the ‘best’ (world class) mics for chorale or symphonic are the DPA 40XX series, but alas are $$$$$.00
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/
No connection w/DPA, other than being a very satisfied user.We use all of these… And SM's as well. *Grins*
Paul Butterfield
Recording Engineer
IATSE A-1 [Location]
"Those who hear not the music think the dancers mad."
- Angela Monet
is gona be your best bet. Three of them spaced equally, left, right, and center panned to middle. Omnis are gona be your best bet but try to record in acoustic spaces that are not too reverberant. Ray Hughes
"I take you as you are
And make of you what I will,
Skunk-bear, carcajou, bloodthirsty
Non-survivor.
Lord, let me die but not die out." THE LAST WOLVERINE by James Dickey
The shure is unidirectional(less directional then below)The AKG 1000s is Cardiod and Hypercariod (more directional coverage)
The AKG 451b is also cardiod but more of a quality mic then
the 1000s and the price shows itI prefer AKGS and I have used the shure at festivals on acoustic
guitar and didnt care for the mic that muchI have used the 1000 and that is a great microphone and especially
for the priceThe pickup pattern is critical for what you are doing
If you want more directional pattern control then go with
the cardiod and hypercardiodIf you want to have less of a directional pattern and more
omnidirectional then go with the ShureThe right mic for the application and coverage is important
Stuart is right - coverage is important - and for a larger chorus I've been successful with 4 cardoids located in pairs splayed at a 60-90 degree angle. If the chorus is say is 24 ft wide - 12 to 14 people - set the mics 8 ft away and 4-5 people in from the side. The cardoids let you use more gain - monitor speakers, if used, should be more or less in line with the mocs to optimize available GBF.
Be aware! The AKG C-1000 has a 12db/8ve rolloff below 200hz. I found out the hard way, when they were the only mics on hand, and I couldn't place them any closer. If the acoustic and circumstances are conducive, omni sounds the best; flatter response, no proximity effect, nice ambiance if placed with care. The older C-451's had interchangable capsules, and could be used as omni's, the newer C-451's are fixed cardioid. How many voices? What is the room like? What, if any, other instruments will be present, and where will they be located? Too many variables to make suggestions. More information would be helpful. Best, David
I was looking for more generic advice, but I'll be as specific as I can. I'll be using these in a church; the circumstances are extremely variable. Sometimes with a 20 person children's choir, sometimes with a men's quartet, sometimes with a 6 person praise team. The main objective is to improve pickup and recording quality, especially for the children's choirs. Anything would be better than the SM58s I'm using now, but I want to improve as much as I can. Most of our 8 year olds don't sing below 200hz, so the rolloff shouldn't be a big issue. The room is going to change in the near future, and that's something I can't help much. Thanks for all your help.
One of the biggest problems with distance miking in a reverberant environment is separating the signal from the echo. I'd investigate Crown PZMs. They work very well in this type of environment. They're still standard equipment on Broadway stages, where they ruled until Countryman and AKG wireless took over, but I doubt if a wireless on each choir member's lapel is in your budget.BTW, if you ever have a chance to see '42nd Street' on Broadway, every cast member has two Countryman mics. One hidden in their clothes or hair for vocals (skimpy costumes, you know) and one in their shoes for the tap dancing feed.
Sell them to a rockster guitar picker who wants to eat a mic. I've been recording choirs for 35 years. I would prefer to invest in a mic that I can change the pickup pattern by changing capsules. The AKG 451 or 461 would be fine as well as the Schoeps. Ray Hughes
"I take you as you are
And make of you what I will,
Skunk-bear, carcajou, bloodthirsty
Non-survivor.
Lord, let me die but not die out." THE LAST WOLVERINE by James Dickey
Just tonight (Dutch time,) I recorded a Bach Cantata; 12 voices, and a 14 piece orchestra on period instruments. I used coincident cardioid's placed just behind and well above the conductor, as the church it was being performed in is very resonant; quite murky, in fact. But listening to the results when I got home it is clear that I was too successful in removing that extra reverberation. Next time I record in that church I think wide cardioid's, or blending in a pair of omni's will get better results. It's not bad, just dry. Hope this information is usefull. David
With the parameters you have given I would go with the unidirectional
Shure mic then
The Shure will give you more coverage area then the cardiods (AKG's)You dont want a couple cardiod mics trying to pic up 20 human beings
in a group singingA couple of the Shures will work well for you
Cardiods pattern is to narrow to have only two of them
The number of microphones is variable; at this point we've been using 2 because no matter how many SM58s we use, the pickup quality still won't be very good unless we have one for every person. I believe we'll probably go with the Shure SM81s; we can mic close enough to eliminate most of the background noise, and the 81s will reduce the number of microphones we'll need to use as we are a bit short on available channels in our sound system. Thanks for all the comments, I've learned a lot just from one thread.
Keep in mind the SM81 has a roll of switch on it
the flat one is the one you want for your choir (flat line)However, if you are picking up rumble or low end sound from
air conditoners or fans or something use the sloped selection
to roll off the low frequencyBy all means dont ever be afraid to experiment with placement
and settings
Click the link below and when your on the page click on microphone
university
Click on stereo techniques
Helpful for mic placement techniques
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