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The installation process was a lot more difficult than I thought, and ended up taking most of the weekend.I think a straight consumer install should be relatively straightforward (apart from the difficulty of finding supported drivers and applications - I spent half the weekend just hunting around for updated versions of apps and drivers).
However, my home environment is probably atypical in that it is a fully Active Directory managed environment, with a Windows 2003 domain controller, software deployed through Group Policy, roaming user profiles plus heterogeneous items like a Linux based MythTV server and a 1.2TB NAS.
Installing Vista turned out to be quite challenging because so many things have changed from an administration perspective. Group Policy admin templates have been vastly enhanced, making it impossible to configure policies on anything other than a Vista workstation. I had problems with Group Policy permissions before I could get the server to push software onto Vista. Also, user profiles have changed dramatically, and Vista can not share user profiles with XP. With some folder redirection hacking though (with the help of Microsoft) I can make Vista user profiles share common data (like My Documents, Desktop, Favorites etc.) with XP profiles.
So those of you running a managed environment, be warned. Installing Vista is not a trivial exercise.
The user interface is very pretty - I like the translucent look on taskbars and window borders.
What about audio? My experience is limited to Windows Media Player 11 and the RealTek HD Audio driver, since I'm too chicken to install non-Vista certified players.
There are some NICE improvements in the RealTek drivers - I can finally configure SPDIF out to support sample/bit rates other than 48/16 (anything from 32 to 192 kHz is supported at both 16- and 24-bits). Also, room correction is supported.
And finally, we are not locked into 48kHz 16-bit in Windows Media Player. It's possible to change the default sample rate (to 44.1kHz for instance). So, there's no more need to bypass kmixer for bit transparency. Also, it's possible to configure audio post processing (such as Dolby Virtual Speaker) directly in Media Player.
So far, I have not seem many Vista certified audio applications, apart from Sonar 6.2 (which I may install and play around with).
Driver availability and stability is a real issue. I can't find Vista drivers for any of my pro audio devices, and some of the drivers appear rather unstable (eg. the NVidia display driver keeps crashing whenever I play videos).
So anyway, Vista seems promising, once drivers for pro audio devices and certified audio apps become available.
Follow Ups:
And I mean geek in a complimentary way. Why does Microsoft have to make everything so convoluted that unless you have a PHD in computer science you can't figure out how to implement their software. Perhaps it has to be to acccomodate the wide variety of programs and peripherals, but there is no way the average consumer can wade through all of this and be sure they have it optimized.I'm sticking with XP while the rest of you figure all this Vista stuff out. Thanks in advance.
I understand Creative Labs is doing work at getting OpenAL to work, maybe it already does....But How about ASIO out.....does it work un-changed?
Vista allows the default sampling rate in "shared mode" to be set to any resolution, including 44.1. Doing so will allow CDs to be played relatively unmolested.ASIO is unaffected since ASIO is not a Microsoft specification, ie. Microsoft doesn't know about it. Roland/Edirol has just released Vista drivers for many of their products, and they support ASIO.
My understanding is that ASIO is not needed any longer for playback because KMIXER is gone.Is there anything Microsoft did not tell us that still makes ASIO
necessary?I have tried Vista beta without ASIO and it sounded better to my ears than XP with ASIO.
IMHO sound quality improvement is one of the few reasons anyone should contemplate to upgrade XP to Vista. Sadly, MS is not talking about it at all.
Check out the following thread on AVSForum (includes participation from Microsoft personnel).My personal opinion is that if you were primarily interested in bit perfect playback, then Vista seems to have addressed the concerns that we had around kmixer (even in shared mode, but certainly in exclusive mode).
For pro audio applications, the main question is latency. I don't know if WASAPI exclusive mode allows the same control over latency that ASIO provides.
The huge advantage that ASIO has in the pro audio world is excellent compatibility/support from nearly all the software packages out there - time will tell whether we will see the same level of support for exclusive mode.
Personally I dont think we will see pro audio et. al. format everything to work with Vista "exclusive mode" if anything we may see a patch that lets Vista work with ASIO.I think this whole thing is just microsoft wanting to flex its muscle and tell the world they dont have to follow suit. It would have been so easy for them to just include ASIO as a driver.
*** Personally I dont think we will see pro audio et. al. format everything to work with Vista "exclusive mode" ***According to ThomasPf the latest version of ntrack 5 supports exclusive mode. I think Sonar will probably support it soon.
***if anything we may see a patch that lets Vista work with ASIO. ***
Vista already works with ASIO, provided you have an Vista compatible ASIO driver (Roland/Edirol has already released, others will soon follow) and ASIO apps.
*** It would have been so easy for them to just include ASIO as a driver. ***
You know your stuff.....
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Christine,I too installed Vista over the weekend and agree that it is not for the faint of heart.
A few suggestions for those itching to install Vista:
Windows Defender is set to constantly scan your computer by default - you might want to put it in manual mode.
Access controls are a pain in the ass.
Indexing is set to full on and can not be fully disabled.
Make sure you have a quite HD - lots of drive access.
MS recommends 512MB RAM - 2GB is more realistic.
No Vista drivers for NVIDIA graphics cards.
Backup your Quicken data in at least 4 different locations - Quicken will not open your data until you turn off Access controls.Make sure you remove both clear stickers from the plastic box, then press the two plastic tabs on the edge of the box while pulling on the red plastic strip sticking out of the top. Yes, I had to Google to figure out how to open the box.
*** No Vista drivers for NVIDIA graphics cards. ***If you mean, no *stable* Nvidia drivers, you would be right LOL
I installed the ones on nvidia's site, but then removed them because they were crashing media center. So I'm currently sticking with the microsoft driver until nvidia gets their act right.
*** Yes, I had to Google to figure out how to open the box. ***
That's hilarious! My copy of Vista came with MSDN, so I didn't have the pleasure of toying with the funny retail box.
I have a laptop that I use as a dedicated music player -- nothing else, no other programs. Does anyone know if I need the Home Premium edition or can I get by with Basic. I do want room correction and other audio goodies. I tried the MS website, but it's unclear.Thanks in advance.
In my case, I am running Ultimate since I have an MSDN subscription. I need the ability to join a domain (for the software management and roaming user profiles).The main differences (from an audio perspective) between Home Premium and basic appears to be support for Media Center, and a built in MPEG decoder (for watching DVDs and digital TV).
Vista also has a number of audio DSP modes (like bass management, room correction, etc.) I don't know if this is available in Basic.
If you are using a laptop, you should try the new Media Center, you may like it. In that case, I would recommend Home Premium.
Thanks. Since this computer is purely for audio (feeding my dddac)I don't think I need MCE. I do, however, want the ability to use room correction. Still need to figure out if Basic will do what I need.
The reason I suggested you should try Media Center is that it's a nice interface. It works even on tiny screens - for example, I have run Media Center successfully over TV output to a tiny 7" LCD screen. And you can navigate across artists and albums (or use folder navigation through a third party interface).Because Media Center works through Windows Media Player, which in turn uses DirectShow, you can get all sorts of non standard formats like FLAC, APE, Ogg Vorbis, etc. supported by loading an appropriate DirectShow filter and a third party plugin called WMPTagSupportExtender.
In summary, Media Center is not just for watching TV. It works as a very nice audio player frontend.
Thanks for the thoughts on MCE. Right now I'm using Windows Media Player because I'm playing around with the Burwen Bobcat, otherwise I tend to use J River and sometimes Foobar. I have my laptop by my couch with USB cable running to my audio rack. It works well, so I'm not sure I need functionality beyond WMP.BTW, Christine, thanks in general for taking the time to post so regularly. I've learned alot from you over the months as I've been putting together my PC-based system.
Regards,
.
Good luck with your new installation Christine.I have been curious about Windows Media Player because of my eventual desire to control my headless server via a UMPC (yes, on one of those tiny 7" screens...). MS has put out what they call the Origami Experience, a UI for UMPC's running Vista that is a very visually appealing interface.
It runs audio through WMP which has made me shy away from it as most audiophile oriented people here seem to run almost anything else as their front end than WMP (Foobar, Winamp, JRiver etc). Seeing you put in a plug for WMP makes me wonder if I have been right to dismiss it out of hand without adding it to my learning curve.
Are there issues with ASIO and WMP? Can one output bitperfect music streams using Vista and WMP?
Thanks,
The main issue for using WMP in Windows XP has been the penalty of going through kmixer. It doesn't support ASIO or kernel streaming. Other than that it is a pretty decent player, and can be extended to support non Microsoft formats (check out something called WMPTagSupportExtender, and directshow filters for FLAC, MPC, Wavpack, Ogg etc.).With Vista, kmixer is no longer an issue since we can set the default sampling rate for all shared mode applications. Given that, I don't see any real issues with using WMP (especially since Media Center is such a nice interface).
Thanks Christine.Very informative post as always. You have a great ability to educate with your posts.
I'll be keeping a closer eye on the Vista threads from now on. Was going to build my system around XP and wait for at least SP1 on Vista but may go the Vista route if the audio handling is de-mystified and seems bullet proof.
Best,
.
I also Installed Vista Home Premium Edition upgrade on a P4 1.7ghz PC without any previous Windows on it. It seem to take the install if you don't enter the SN# first at pre-install, enter it later after image is up and running. I had Ubuntu loaded on this machine for awhile and Ubuntu worked fine on this PC, but Vista runs little slower on this 1.7ghz PC with 512mb of ram then the Ubuntu OS. Looks like I will have to bump up the CPU and a gig of memory according to the Vista performance stats it shows you. Allot of things changed on Vista as far as the GUI, will take some time getting used to all the new features. The only thing I had issues with was finding the correct wireless drivers for the Belkin PCI card, taken me awhile to find the right drivers. The ones from the Belkin site had few Vista drivers that were just posted a few days ago. I ended up finding the CD for my wireless card, and the drivers from the CD worked. After getting online with the wireless connection, I was then able to connect to my home network connection and locate the rest of my shares from the other PC's in my house just fine. For some reason, my wireless connection in Vista seem to get a better signal strength then when I had Ubuntu installed, and also better strength then my laptops with Windows XP in the same room. Just my 2 cents on Vista. But over all, seems like Vista will run fine on a PC with the P4 1.7ghz chip, and 512mb of memory, it’s not fast, but it works and is stable. Anything lower then that, I would stick to Windows XP or upgrade you’re CPU and memory.
Gang,Mercman-Steve emailed me this interesting Forum on the Creative site about Windows Audio Services.
This primarily because of a statement made by Thomas below that the Windows Services converted everything to 32 bit precision floating point and then back to what ever the output driver was looking for.
I have asked a number of times why this happens and if it has impact on bit perfect but have not got any response yet.
I guess I could connect my MacBook up with SPDIF I/O Toslink to my dScope and see what happens.
But it would be nice to know what the real story is and if Exclusive bypasses the Audio Services or what.
Too many questions....
Thanks
Gordon
J. Gordon Rankin
Hi Gordon,I was pretty busy but I eventually responded to your earlier question. Exclusive mode bypasses the stack and if you want to try you can download Ntrack 5 which has support for WASAPI.
I have not been able get this to work since ntrack complains about an incompatible buffer size. I will investigate and let you know how this works out.
Cheers
Thomas,Yea I know the feeling. I could use a week off just to regroup.
~~~~~
Ok basically any application written to WASAPI can bypass the stack and gain "Exclusive" mode if the user set's this option true?
I guess really the problem will be the ramp up time for applications to goto Vista.
And working device drivers...It's sort of hard to believe after 5 years in development but quite a few companies wait till after the product has shipped before seriously investing in driver development.
Cheers
... if you open a session in exclusive mode using WASAPI, then no conversion is performed (other than scenarios such as you sending 16-bit data, and the driver bitpadding for a 24-bit DAC, and of course assuming a well written driver that does not try and resample on it's own).Certainly for SPDIF mode, there should be no conversion.
The discussion is a bit academic at the moment since I do not know of any application that supports WASAPI exclusive mode. Even Sonar is still using DirectKS.
However, in shared mode, everything is mixed and resampled to a common resolution, which you can specify (defaults to 48/16, but can be changed for example to 44.1/24 which is what I set it to). I suspect the mixing is done in 32-bits.
However, I am not an authority on this. Suggest you pose a question directly to Microsoft (the best way to do this is by attending WinHEC).
muuuuuahaahhahahahhaahhaaa!!!
I installed Vista last weekend, and you're right, it is a big pain. One question though. How did you make sure you're playback is set for 44.1kHz.
I set the output from my Creative Drivers at 44.1 but I'm wondering if there's anything inside vista that needs to be set set as well. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
In Exclusive mode you can check the boxes that let other device take exclusive control over S/PDIF ....so it appears that if your running foobar for example your 44.1Hz signal will pass through the internal s/pdif device untouched.once i hook it up to my behringer i will know whats coming out of Vista
Under Devices, select Speakers properties, then select the audio output stream (speaker or SPDIF) properties, I think in the Advanced tab you can change the sample rate (it defaults to 48/16, which means everything is resampled to this rate).Otherwise, I suspect you are incurring the penalty of dual resampling (WMP resamples to 48, and then Creative resamples back to 44.1!)
I wish there was an option to not resample, but preserve the sample rate of the source, and change the audio driver to match the sample rate dynamically. However, this would require exclusive access to the audio device, which is probably the reason Microsoft didn't implement it that way.
However, I'm looking forward to third party audio applications implementing exclusive access.
It recognised my MythTV box as a UPnP media server!
A halfway useful application for UPnP, I assume you're running Myth .20 with the built-in UPnP service. Can you watch your shows from Media Player, or does it only handle videos and music?
/*Music is subjective. Sound is not.*/
I have tried connecting to the UPnP service on MythTV from PowerDVD but didn't see anything worth streaming so I suspect I have not configured MythTV correctly. Vista discovery of UPnP devices is in the explorer and allows browsing, so I presume if the UPnP server has content that Vista recognises (eg. in WMA or WMV format) it should hopefully see it.
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