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In Reply to: Ripped cd's to HD, now what???? posted by Ron on September 7, 2006 at 06:55:22:
Hi Ron,Keep in mind that because there are so many alternatives, describing each one thoroughly would take a small book :-). And as you've seen, there'a ton of technical minutia but it's difficult to find something that describes the big picture that you need to get your hands around this thing.
The simplest way to get sound from your computer to your stereo is to just get a Radio Shack adapter cable like this one and run an RCA cable to your stereo if it's close enough. That will get you started. You'll find most computer sound cards don't have very good sound quality though. To go further, it would help if you would be as specific as possible regarding your goals for the system (multi-room audio, etc). In that way, many possibilities could be eliminated at the beginning, simplifying the discussion.
A few words about the Squeezebox. What makes it different is that it's a network device, not a sound card. It has its own IP address on your local network, uses TCP/IP for communication and so forth. The upside of this is that it simplifies "network-like" applications like multi-room audio. You can either use ethernet cables from your router to the Squeezebox if your home is wired for ethernet, or you can get yourself a wireless router and stream the music wirelessly to multiple Squeezeboxes if you like. The downside is that because the OS does not see it as a sound card, you cannot use applications like Foobar and Windows Media Player with the Squeezebox. You are forced to use the SlimServer software. Many people don't like SlimServer. It is freeware, and you can try it out without needing a Squeezebox to test it. This is done with the SoftSqueeze software that comes with SlimServer. SoftSqueeze "fakes" a Squeezebox in software using your sound card to get the sound out.
Some planning can avoid unnecessary expense. If you buy an awesome $500 sound card now, then later decide you want multi-room audio, that 500 bucks will end up not being well spent. The high-quality sound card solution is a better fit to a single audio system rather than a multi-room situation.
Follow Ups:
Thanks Andy, everything you said makes sense. I'll give you two scenarios to help narrow it down.Right now I just want to learn 'how' and 'what I need' to get the best sound from my PC to a SINGLE home stereo system.
I'm sure I will eventually want multi-room audio. Probably two to three rooms. What options if I want to go this route?
Hope this helps...
By the way, I have done the rca jack thing the home stereo. It sounded decent I must say. I just would like to know how to get the best sound as I went thru the trouble of ripping in flac to preserve sound quality...
Thanks again..
Hi Ron,
It seems like there is still a little confusion in your mind here, I thought I'd go over some of the terms and how the various pieces connect together.First is DAC, this stands for Digital to Analog Converter. Your FLAC files are digital, somehow these have to get converted to analog signals to feed your stereo system, this is done by a DAC chip. The DAC chip can exist in many different places: on the computer motherboard, on a "soundcard" that sits inside the computer (usually a PCI card) or in an external box. The external box has many different subcategories. Some more expensive "soundcards" have both a card that goes into the computer AND a separate box that actually has the DAC chip. The cable that runs between the two is specific to that product, its NOT a standard digital interface.
You can also have a box that uses a standard digital interface such as USB or firewire, the are frequently called "external soundcards" becasue the DAC is external to the computer, but the software on the computer sees it just like any other soundcard. These can be catagorized as consumer, pro audio or audiophile products. Companies such as Creative and M-audio sell what I would call "consumer" versions, they are genarally fairly inexpensive and do not use the BEST quality parts. They are aimed more at a mass market audience. The PRO products usually cost quite a bit more and are aimed mostly at studios and such. They frequently have a lot of features that are not particularly used by home stereo use, but their sound quality can be very good. There are quite a few people around here that like these products. The last is the "audiophile" boxes specifically designed for high end audio use, they usually cost a lot and don't have nearly as many features as the pro stuff, but they can sound REALLY good. Sometimes you will hear such boxes refered to as USB DACs (or firewire DACs), its means the same thing, USB from the computer goes in, analog goes out.
There is a whole different category of external DAC boxes which have been around for a long time. The digital input to these is usually S/PDIF which is a digital stream that was designed to come out of CD players, it has nothing to do with computers. This has been around since the introduction of CDs. This is an audio only digital interface, not a general purpose computer interface such as USB. BTW there are two flavors of S/PDIF, an eltrical interface using coaxial cable (generally called "coax") and an optical interface using fiber optic cables (generally refered to as TOSLINK) its exactly the same data in both cases and they are both S/PDIF. Since there are so many of these DAC boxes around there is a lot of interset in using these with computers. Again there are many ways to get the S/PDIF out of a computer. Some motherboards support, some sound cards have S/PDIF out, you can get boxes that take in USB and send out S/PDIF etc. These converters can range from $20 to $1000, if you want to go this route you have to choose where you want to be in the price performance range. S/PDIF is a whole massive subject in and of itself, I'm not going to go into all the ins and out here, you can do some searching on this if you want to.
The last categoty is the network player such as the squeezebox. These hook up over ethernet (either cable or wifi). The big difference is they do NOT behave like a soundcard to a computer, you not just use foobar or Jriver or whatever to send sound to them. Why would you want to use one of these? The boxes have their own user interface, a display and IR remote. You run them either from the box itself OR from the computer. They are specifically designed for multi room systems where you have one library of files and each box can independantly choose what music to listen to. Again you CAN use a computer to run the system but you don't have to.
There is also a sonic advantage, for both USB and S/PDIF interfaces the DAC has to "slave" to the source which is in control, this slaving can produce less than the best possible sound, if you really wqant to open a can of worms search on "jitter" and how that varies with different interface types. The upshot is that something like a squeezebox does not have this problem and thus can theoretically sound better than a lot of other solutions. Of course it all comes down to implementation so this is not necessarily true.
Now as to recommendations, since you say you eventually want to go with a multiroom system, I personally would go with a squeezebox system from the get go. If you don't already have an external S/PDIF DAC I would go with a modified squeezebox as your primary interface for your stereo system. The modifications produce a very good sound out of the SB, maybe not the absolute best in the world. but still very good and certainly one of the best sound for the money you can get in audio today. You will have a choice of running with the Sb remote and its own display, or using the computer. Since the interface is through a web page you don't have to run it from the computer that is storing the files, you could have a laptop right next to the listening chair, or use a PDA that has a wireless interface.
Another option is to still use the slimserver/Sb system but don't actually use the hardware SB for your main system. You could get something like a DDDAC USB DAC which sound very good as well and run softsqueeze on the local computer which sends the data out over the USB por to the DAC. I've actually been doing this for over a year with my own DIY USB DAC.
Well thats probably enough to totally confuse you for now.
John, everyone...Thanks for headache! Ok kidding. Very good explanation thank you. I'm definately starting to understand this stuff a little bit.
Squeezebox question...from my understanding the squeezebox needs a stereo to play thru or powered speakers, is that correct? If that is the case what do most people do? I mean I can't see everyone buying 3 recievers+3sets of speakers so they can use the squeezebox in 3 different rooms.
Is their a good soundcard/DAC in the $200 range?
Thanks AGAIN!
Right now I just want to learn 'how' and 'what I need' to get the best sound from my PC to a SINGLE home stereo system.Well, "best sound" is impossible to answer. There are as many opinions on this subject as there are people in this forum. But I'll list some alternatives.
1) High quality sound card-> analog out-> stereo
2) High quality sound card-> RCA S/PDIF out-> external DAC-> stereo
3) High quality sound card-> TosLink optical out-> external DAC-> stereo
4) High quality USB external sound card-> analog out-> stereo
5) High quality USB external sound card-> RCA S/PDIF out-> external DAC-> stereo
6) High quality USB external sound card-> TosLink optical out-> external DAC-> stereo
7) High quality Firewire external sound card-> analog out-> stereo
8) High quality Firewire external sound card-> RCA S/PDIF out-> external DAC-> stereo
9) High quality Firewire external sound card-> TosLink optical out-> external DAC-> stereo
10) Squeezebox-> analog out-> stereo
11) Squeezebox-> RCA S/PDIF out-> external DAC-> stereo
12) Squeezebox-> TosLink optical out-> external DAC-> stereoThat's a lot of alternatives, and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if I missed a whole bunch too. This is why the question is difficult to answer.
As an aside, I got my Benchmark DAC1 from sweetwater.com. They cater to a lot of pro audio stuff. I get their catalog in the mail. Because pro audio is becoming more computer-oriented, there is a totally mind boggling array of computer sound devices available. It's as amazing as it is confusing.
I'm sure I will eventually want multi-room audio. Probably two to three rooms. What options if I want to go this route?
This question is easier to answer because there are fewer alternatives. The most commonly used solution is the Squeezebox. At its price point of $300, it's higher quality than cheaper solutions like the Roku, but not nearly as expensive as more elaborate solutions like Sonos. You can start out with a single system with just one Squeezebox. If you want higher sound quality, you can get an external DAC and hook it up to the S/PDIF or TosLink digital outputs. If you want multi-room, you just buy more Squeezeboxes. The SlimServer software can control each one individually, or it can sync them. This is the most scalable solution. I have not tried the Sonos or Roku, so I can't comment on them.
Andy, everyone..You say for better sound quality to use an external DAC with the S/PDIF or Toslink outputs. I assume using these you have to have a WIRED squeezebox right?
Or does the external DAC just hook up to the squeezebox via the mentioned outputs and still connect wirelessly to the music server?
I would rather go wireless if I go the SB route.
What are some decent external DAC's under $300?
What are some popular decent powered speakers?
Thank you all for the help..
Ron,First let me correct an error I made earlier. As John Swenson mentioned, both the RCA and Toslink digital signals are technically considered S/PDIF. I had erroneously assumed that the physical medium had to be coax for it to be considered S/PDIF.
Or does the external DAC just hook up to the squeezebox via the mentioned outputs and still connect wirelessly to the music server?
Yes, that's exactly correct. The wireless SB also has a wired connection. So if you later move into a home that's wired for ethernet, you're not constrained to use wireless.
What are some decent external DAC's under $300?
That I'm not sure. Some DACs in this price range may not be that big of an improvement over the internal SB DACs. It depends on the manufacturer. The digital forum is probably the best place to ask that question. If you do get the SB, it might be a good idea to just use it by itself for a while to see if you're satisfied with the sound quality. Then you can add a DAC at any time, taking your time to find what's best for you.
What are some popular decent powered speakers?
I assume you're talking about some kind of small setup for the second room? This forum is oriented more toward high-end audio fanatics integrating computer audio into their main systems, rather than the more general subject of computer audio. That said, a relative of mine bought a Logitech 2.1 setup for his computer (small satellites plus sub) that sounded really good for what it was. If it's a small, inexpensive setup like this you're looking for, that might be something to consider. In a higher price range, there are lots of powered mini-monitors for pro audio use. I have a sweetwater.com catalog that lists a whole bunch of them. I have no idea if they sound any good though. Judging by prices and features, you seem to get a lot for your money going this route. You might check the sweetwater.com site, and also the pro audio forum for better info.
I think I listened to the 7.0's and while they dont pretend to be a big speaker they had great imaging and a soundstage that extended beyond the speakers tehmselves.
Is the SB very user friendly? Do you only access it with the remote?
Is the SB very user friendly? Do you only access it with the remote?Here's what you should do to answer this. Download the SlimServer software and set up the SoftSqueeze software that comes with it. SoftSqueeze displays a graphic that looks exactly like the display of the SB hardware itself. It also displays a graphic that looks exactly like the remote. You can test drive the actual hardware system by clicking the mouse on this "virtual remote" and observing the "virtual SB" display. This mimics the actual hardware behavior almost exactly.
But this is not the only way to control the SB. You can also sit at the server and control it entirely through the SlimServer UI. The SlimServer UI is web based and displays in your web browser.
This brings up a third way to control the SB. I use a laptop next to my listening chair for this, but any wireless or wired network device that supports a web browser can be used. By putting a special URL into the web browser, one can connect to the SlimServer remotely, and the display looks exactly like what you see when running SlimServer on the server itself.
You should really try out SlimServer with SoftSqueeze. It works with your existing sound card. The people who don't like the SB usually are that way because they don't like the software. You can check it out all beforehand and avoid surprises later.
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