|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
4.246.120.226
I recently compared Walter's with Jochum's earlier DG and preferred the Jochum. I wished I had waited to sell the Walter dammit....and Evolution-knows what Bruckner 4th's Clark prefers from the '30's.... : )
Follow Ups:
Bruckner's stuff is the worst sort of pompus, self-important, over-blown Romantic Era musical BS. I'm challenged to believe he could be anyone's favorite composer, (except maybe Clark's).Why anyone would want to listen to this bilge in mono or in 50's stereo is utterly beyond me.
Bill Bailey
___________________________________________
See my stereo config
I used to do that habitually when a teenager.
... is that I don't like Bruckner, or quite a few either composer so the Romantic Era; (e.g. Schumann, yuck!) But did I say that Bruckner was not a compontent, even a great composer? I did not say that.Actually I admit that as a musically untrained person I am in no position to judge any composer on technical criteria. On a subjective esthetic level, I am answerable to no one for my preferences, nor they to me.
Bill Bailey
___________________________________________
See my stereo config
Yikes! You don't like the Schumann Piano Concerto?? It's not as straight-forward and the Grieg, but man it has some gorgeous moments.
"Bruckner's stuff is the worst sort of pompus, self-important, over-blown Romantic Era musical BS." While I for the most part share your doubt about Bruckner,
Bruckner was actually humble to a fault. One of the most pertinent comments I've ever read pertaining to Bruckner was (I believe) observed by Bruno Walter: With Bruckner, the battle is already won, (or something like that).
If you think about it, that creates quite a problem when one is trying to write a symphony, especially in the "German" or "Romantic" tradition of consonance conquering dissonance, major conquering minor, etc., and I hasten to add I'm painting with extrememly broad brush-strokes. One could immediately point out Tchaikovsky's 6th as an example of the opposite, and one could easily point out moments of dissonance in Bruckner
If you were Bruckner, how would you go about writing a symphony in the Romantic era while believing that it would be blasphemous to fetishise despair, dissonance and conflict in your writing? I guess you would write like Bruckner: repetition, more emphasis on rhythm, elemental (humble) tunes... well, time for a beer.
... I would have no idea how one would " write a symphony, especially in the "German" or "Romantic" tradition of consonance conquering dissonance, major conquering minor, etc. ".I admit ashamedly that I'm musically untutored. To coin a phrase, "I don't know what's good, I only know what I like", and presently it isn't Bruckner. Nevertheless I will listen to his work from time to time. Sometimes perseverance pays off: for example, I'm beginning to enjoy Beethoven's late string quarters which long eluded me.
Bill Bailey
___________________________________________
See my stereo config
I don't mean to suggest that anyone has to be tutored, it just seems to me that Bruckner was in an awkward position of having to write "happy" "noble" music, not hard-won; though the results seem hard-won to my ears.I'm also taking time to listen to the late Beethoven quartets. One thing I've found is that the Hollywood Quartet surpasses my Italian and Hungarian versions in matters of intonation--it's superhuman. I don't know if you've heard them or not, but it's been really helpful in following the line in the Grosse Fugue.
d
a
...a little repetitious, isn't Bruckner? I've always liked the 4th, 9th, and the slow mov't of the 8th is one of the most perfect creations, no kidding--I was surprised myself that Bruckner was capable. Some say Bruckner one has to take Bruckner from a more "ritualistic" point of view, kind of like Arvo Part in a suit of armor chopping up saurkraut.
outward form. Like a Rothko painting, or the "sameness" that is the expanse of the universe or the swellings of the oceans, the profound nature of Bruckner's music is in the broad expanse of the colors, the points of incredible light piercing through the background and the long -- flat out VAST -- development of huge waves of power that are Bruckner's trademarks. They define his music as a totally unique contribution to Classical music.It's OK to dismiss him because he is not saying what one likes to hear. It is unthinking to brand Bruckner as not having anything important to say, or to deny his effectiveness at saying it. Don't be fooled by outward sameness: all humans look the same, is that a satisfactory summary of their value?
Brilliant analogy.
Bill Bailey
___________________________________________
See my stereo config
...(Karl Boehm) and I recall not liking it that much, although I should now re-audition.There's a Furtwaengler from '41 that I've never heard, and the Oswald Kabasta from a couple years later is simply grand.Generally I like Klemperer's approach here, primarily the ones with the Philharmonia (stereo!) and the Vienna boys, but also with the Bavarian Radio SO. Celibadache (on Rococo) ain't bad either, ditto Heinz Wallberg.
But the Walter/Columbia ranks right up there too.
So bad we considered it a party disc back in my conservatory days.
You played Bruckner at your parties?? Gotta love the conservatory crowds.I'd have never dared. Even at its extreme I kept it at the level of carefully considered light Perlman tracks or the New Swingle Singers' doing Jazz Sebastian Bach. Regardless, my party CDs were frequently adapted for use as an ashtray instead. (Though they never vomited into my amplifier, which apparently can happen, reading from a past posting here.)
Never heard Barenboim in Bruckner but the newer BPO cycle seems universally and uniformly and in all respects praised by basically everyone.
That horrible 4th was for laughing at. When we got serious we put on (and tried to rhythmically parse) Zappa and Mahavishnu. ;-)
You thought the 4th was, like, on the lighter side? Nice thinking; I bet the girls appreciated. But much better than the Kreisler bonbons at any rate.Today I'm doing exclusively the Red Army Choir and Finnish tango. Easier to parse, too.
I love the warm, humane conducting. A German friend of mine considers it "unstylish".Do you not like the 4th? I haven't heard it, but I love nearly everything I've heard from Walter's "indian summer".
his Schubert, which lumbers along like a Model T. What's interesting about the Walter Bruckner 4th is that one can hear that the conductor has some unique ideas about it, much like his Beethoven 5th. Walter shades and treats the opening introductory horn-call material so differently that the first mov't becomes a little disjointed. I also find the dramatic material a little undernourished. I do in fact love the 9th.
You might want to try his Schubert 9 with the NYP in Carnegie Hall from 1946. It's quite a vigorous performance. This sound is excellent.
I'd love to hear the 1946 "Great" C major. I've had the iconic 1953 Siegfried Idyll on LP since it came out (parents had joined the Columbia Record Club and it came as a freebee). The original LP also featured the Haydn Vars and the 1940 Moldau, both unsurpassed.Walter's association with the NYPO was close from his very first year in the US, including 2 years as principal conductor before Metripolous took over.
I'm not buying the G mag any more (after Hatto - ), so I was wondering if my new love (Sinopoli doing Bruckner!) featured in that hot list at all. All I'm doing these days is listening that sorely missed master in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th, and that's only because none of the rest are available and despite the fact that I almost can't stand Bruckner at all (except maybe with Abbado whose 7th and 9th are great, no matter what the big boys tell ya).So if anyone's interested in my JPN SACD of the Boehm 4th or the Euro SACDs of the Nagano 3rd and the Ozawa 7th, I'll gladly trade for a Sinopoli 7th, 8th, or 9th.
I don't have any of his Bruckner, but Sinopoli's Schubert 8th is a favorite. Also, his Strauss operas from the 90's are outstanding, particularly Elektra with Deborah Voigt. Are recordings by Sinopoli rare?
Just OOP, a lot of the earlier DGG issues, not the lasting favorites you mention though.Funny, I never felt a thing for his Mahler (whom I love above all others), but in just about everything else he's my ticket.
Bruckner, Symphony No.4 in E-flat maj 'Romantic'
These are all very good. As with any complex work, there can be many enjoyable, pleasing and "valid" interpretations.Bohm, K/VPO, London, 466 374-2, 1973, ADD, 68
Jochum, E/BPO, DG, 427 200-2 , 1967, ADD, 65
Masur, K/NYPO, Teldec, 3984-21338-2, 1991, DDD, 67
Marin, I/BBC Scottish SO, BBC, MM238, 2003, DDD, 66
Tintner, G/RSNO, Naxos, 8.554128, 1996, DDD, 73
Wand, G/BPO, RCA, 902668839, 1998, DDD, 69
I hesitate to say anything about Bruckner symphonies here given the flame wars I've seen in the past, but - if you prefer Jochum to Walter, why do you care what Gramophone or anyone else says? I have the complete Jochum set, and though it's good, I've never understood why it's so highly rated by critics. Of the dusty old mono boys, I've always very much liked van Beinum's Bruckner, but with all the records you seem to have, I'm sure you've heard a good selection of Bruckner, and I don't mean to imply you need any guidance from anyone, including me. ;-)
... he emphasizes the drama in Bruckner (as opposed to the mystical granduer or architectural elements) and his cycles were pretty well recorded (for the time) and use fantastic orchestras (the BPO and Dresden).Of course, this is only what I, as one not always impressed with Bruckner's writing, enjoy about his performances. Someone who is more convinced that by Bruckner's mastery of symphonic form than I am might enjoy the Boulez or Harnoncourt, and somebody who wants the mystical can't go wrong with Furtwangler. To each his own, particularly where Bruckner is concerned.
One of the things that I look for in my favorite Bruckner performances is the elements of Schubert. There is drama, formal structure, and mysticism, but also a tunefulness. No, he never wrote a Pastorale, but there are elements of it especially in the Eighth (and also the earlier ssymphonies, although its been awhile since I listened to 1 and 2.
I don't really have a current favorite fourth, but I do have the Walter - maybe I'll give it a spin today. I also have the Haitink fourth - I do think Haitink is a bit underrated in Bruckner.
nt
... even tho I'm generally quite an admirer of his. "Even finer" than the Bohm/VPO, the reviewer said, which is interesting, since the Bohm is far and away my favorite. Though of course Grandmaphone like all reviews must be taken with a grain of salt.
NT.
| ||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: