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In Reply to: Most classical music is better than Mahler. posted by andy evans on February 2, 2007 at 14:59:32:
"Besides, his music upsets orchestral musicians who have been known to walk off stage during performances."
Follow Ups:
"Besides, his music upsets orchestral musicians who have been known to walk off stage during performances."Forgive me if I'm being dense . . . is this a joke? > >
No, it isn't! I'm a psychologist who specialises in seeing musicians in therapy, and this is a fact. Musicians find some music unsettling, and as I said this includes Schumann and Mahler. There was certainly "something of the night" about them.
I'm not saying that the stage empties gradually - that would be the "Farewell" Symphony...........
But seriously - isn't there music which you find unsettling? Add an orchestral musician in an anxiety state and mix carefully, plus throw in a few more stressors (conductor, venue...) and there you have the potential for someone, somewhere to go over the parapet.
As an orchestral musician for over 35 years, I can only admit that I've never, ever heard of anything like this. Seeing a shrink over Mahler? Um, it seems to me there may be causes of musicians' anxiety that go just a little bit deeper than what we played last week.As a member of an orchestra that specializes in Mahler (for 25+ years) I can tell you what musicians--the ones who aren't seeing a shrink, at least--think about playing his music: "Oh yeah! Let's go!"
Mahler wrote music that is extremely challenging to play, both in the individual and collective sense. When you accomplish a good performance (and perhaps make a little music along the way) it is therefore extremely gratifying. Mahler also wrote some of the most idiomatic parts of any composer: as one who conducted orchestras his entire composing career, he had an ear for sonority and an intimate knowledge of what instruments could do and what makes them sound good together. That makes him even more fun to play.
Yes, I do find that some music is "unsettling." Thank goodness! What do you think, music is supposed to be all powdered wigs and frilly collars? Sometimes Bach is profoundly unsettling. Sometimes Beethoven, sometimes Stravinsky, oftentimes Shostakovich--as well as a lot of paintings, plays, novels, and films. Sometimes art is supposed to unsettle you. Mahler can be "unsettling," and he can also be joyous, innocent, glorious, inspiring, naive, loving, sarcastic, tormented, serene . . . do the musicians who see you complain about all those things, too?
Frankly there are a lot of folks out there these days who will never experience the thrill, the sheer aliveness of being unsettled, because they're loaded up with trendy chemical "settling aids" freely dispensed by the psychiatric community, who have long since given up trying to see what's eating people and instead throw up their hands and "treat" the "chemical imbalance" in their brains.
The only thing in music that could "throw me over the parapet" is the knowledge that I'm about to perform my 357th show of "Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat." If there are musicians who can't handle performing a Mahler symphony--and Schumann, fer heaven's sake!--then they're in the wrong line of work.
The only thing in music that could "throw me over the parapet" is the knowledge that I'm about to perform my 357th show of "Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat."In 20 years I've amassed loads of data on musicians, and it won't surprise you that the lowest job value of all (far and away) is "a predictable routine"! It's the same for actors, incidentally.
I have nothing to do with chemicals, and I quite agree that art is unsettling and should be so. I didn't actually say "musicians walked off stage because they were playing Mahler". What I said was that musicians who:
a) found Mahler unsettling
b) were already in an anxiety state
have walked off stage during a performance of Mahler, because the combination of the two pushed them over the edge. I hope this makes it clearer.
As for Schumann, one pianist burst into tears immediately after playing his piano concerto, and lived in constant worry that he would break into tears while performing Schumann.
Yes, some composers are unsettling for some performers - though as has been said, the majority of musicians are unaffected. Musicians are sensitive beings, nevertheless, and bursting into tears with emotion in some circumstances is far from rare, and if depressed more common still. I see a number of musicians who for one reason or another can't go on the platform. Of course I have a skewed clientele - they all have problems of some kind. But in the years I was in the profession as a bass player I saw plenty of grief first hand.
It's only music!
nt
Or banjo?
nt
Ba-dum-bum!
on the road, 8 shows a week of Andrew Lloyd Webber's roller skating extravaganza "Starlight Express" with an all electric rhythm section (3 synthesizers, guit, bass, and yes, even ELECTRIC DRUMS). My chair was alto/baritone/flute/clarinet. I only knew sound was coming out of my flute or clarinet 'cause I felt vibration in my chops. I was the only horn player who (mistakenly) didn't wear ear plugs. Pitch was somewhere between A 400-500, befitting the musak. And this guy's rapping about symphonic musicians' emotional problems playing Mahler?!
I know better than to trade horror stories with you! Hell, 45 Nutcrackers only caused mild brain damage this time! And I've done 100+ show runs of Phantom, but at least that's quasi-music.And Rick, part of being a professional is making sure the earplugs are in the bag--along with the magazine! THEN you check and see if you have enough reeds for the show.
Meanwhile, the *only* thing I won't play--ever again--is the circus. Might drive me to see a shrink!
play a weekend with the Big Apple circus one time. Believe it or not it was good music and a good band, and not even non-stop playing. I once took a couple of kids to the *regular* circus and sat about 5 rows down from the band. I couldn't believe they were still alive after the show, and they had two more shows to do that day. Yowza!
When my kids were little, we took them to the Ringling Bros. circus, and I gotta tell you, the band was great. What stuck out for me was that the brass players had incredible chops, and the drummer was remarkeably inventive for such a venue. Those were some very talented and dedicated professionals playing in what had to be abominable circumstances.
The worst thing was when Armando missed his triple flip and you had to go back to the top . . . anyone got the suicide hotline number?
....consisted of 6 weeks with the Shrine Circus (George Carden) in Flint, Saginaw, and Detroit. That was a nightmare mostly because of the incompetent, crooked, AND drug addled con man who claimed to be the leader of the band. He stole a week of the band's pay, and vanished with a rental car--actually a Ford Bronco. The truck was found on the side of the freeway outside the city, and our fearless leader was found face-down outside a crackhouse in Detroit. We hired a new keyboardist who could actually play, and I conducted the band for the last week and a half or so. Other than that it was mostly just wierd because circus culture is other-worldly to be sure. Rick's ALW gig sounds far scarier to my ears.
dh
My circus experience was like a story-book compared to youse guys.Never again, though. I should have known when I showed up for the rehearsal and there was a book on my stand, five inches thick, that said "First Half."
...to George Carden's credit, he immidiately paid the band the amount of money that the other guy had stolen. We didn't get screwed THAT bad. Of course, after the upaid rehearsals and below scale-pay I was a little miffed when the Union showed up for the first time on the last day to get our names so they could collect their dues from us. Man, I was pissed. Mark, I think you've seen me tell this one before....Okay, take a deep breath.....it's all in the past......whew! All better now.:-)
dh
nt
should never have gotten a gig in a decent orchestra. I have around ten friends who play in orchestras here in NYC, and the idea that Mahler freaks them out is ludicrous. Circus band music?! Though I'm a jazzer, I'd die a happy man if I could ever compose 30 minutes of music worthy of being compared to Mahler.I do know plenty of off the wall musicians, so I'd guess you have a busy practice. However, I've never run across any who are launched over the edge by playing music composed by people who have "something of the night" about them.
I can understand that you find this a bit off the wall, but bear in mind that in the last 20 years I've been listening to hundreds and hundreds of musicians innermost secrets, and I think that if you took a step back and considered the life of stage artists you'd admit that odd things happen (and not just in rock and roll). Incidentally, the musicians in question were extremely fine ones, and are still playing high profile gigs. If you've been in the profession all your life you will have heard quite a few unusual and entertaining stories.
Would you name names? :-) :-)
Seriously, I'll bet you were a fine bassist, judging from the way you broke down the differences between Bill Evans' trios awhile back. Or at the least, a very astute listener, IMHO. Even when not agreeing with you all the way, one followed your reasoning and the musical examples you put forth were right on, again IMHO. Billy Hart, with Evans- inspired.
I digress, but I've been meaning to say it when I got a moment-
Regards,
Or less, depending.
Certainly in the UK the pub is where the social fabric of the orchestra holds together!
Say no more! ;-)
Yes - most people I deal with are in the UK but as it happens these weren't. Seems like we're more sensitive beings this side of the pond.
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