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In Reply to: I'd Rather Be Open Minded posted by JimOfOakCreek on April 19, 2007 at 09:15:06:
But...I have heard one, so my mind is made.
A gremlin has the same tires, gas, steel etc.. as a porsche. It ain't a porsche...
The people pushing this amp have not garnered the experience you are talking about. They don't know, yet they push it anyway. It's that lack of objectivity and credibility that bothers me. If they took your approach we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Follow Ups:
Thank you for the help guys. I will look at the suggestions you gave me. ( Acurus A200, Classe M350, HK 1.5- 5.1- 7.1, And even Mr. Gunn's Hypex Class D Amp kit.) But I do have to say to Mr. Gunn. For someone that is "really tired of this debate because I really don't like the fact that it makes most of us seem like snobs." Because " this forum doesn't exist to prompt people to get an amp they can buy at shopping.com for 300 bucks." And your "A gremlin has the same tires, gas, steel etc.. as a porsche. It ain't a porsche..." analogy. You do a bang up job to debunk the stigmatism. You made me feel as if I was thrift store shopping at a high end audio store, that I had my nerve even walking into.... Meteorically speaking. I was just hoping to avoid telling my wife that I wanted to spend another $3000 of my kids college fund. To get the speakers I just bought... that she is already not very happy about, to work properly.
Thanks again... Bullfrogg
P.S. ain't is not a word and porsche should be capitalized. :) LMHO just a little ribbing.
To be fair, the issue of Behringer (or some other pro amp) comes up in these threads somewhat frequently. I don't think PG was really directing any of his statements at you. He owns a Pass X250 which is a very fine amplifier, as is a Classe M350, but inexpensive they aren't (even used at $3000, that's a substantial investment for a single component). I've heard a Pass amp driving a nice pair of MLs and it was "to die for". Then again, his system was more expensive than my car.That, I think, is the rub for most of us. We *know* we would *rather* have the $10,000 amplifier, but responsibilities (or marital peace) preclude such expenditures. The Acurus I mentioned is *not* in the same league as either the Pass or the Classe - if cost were no object, I wouldn't own the A200. But, cost *is* an object for me and A/B comparisons have proven to me that the $1100 (I think that was the MSRP) Acurus is no slouch - too bad Mondial sold out to Klipsch and the Acurus line was sacrificed. Let's just say that I'm not itching to upgrade.
I am sensitive to your sensibilities and having read many posts written by PG, I'm sure he isn't rubbing anything in anyone's face. The point he made in his initial post marries precisely with the one I made - you might be able to pick up a new Behringer for $300, but for a couple hundred more you can pick up a used amp that would put it to shame. There are quite a few excellent choices from which to choose.
If you're careful, you can find some fantastic bargains on audiogon; they can even be found on eBay. I only mentioned the A200 because I think it's a better option than the Behringer and I *know* I like it - others may not. But for any reader who may be thinking I'm promoting a piece of crap because the thing didn't cost enough, please consider the following information – I apologize for the verbosity of it all.
It was made in the USA and if you send an email to one of the engineers who still supports this product, you will receive a personable and helpful response. Does this remind anyone of the manufacturer of this chap's speakers (who, by the way is still a vibrant American manufacturer - sorry, it's where I live so I'm partial)?
A review of the older 200x3 (the A200 is really the update of the original A250 2-channel amp) which appeared in Audio Magazine in 1995 praised its low, uniform output impedance. Measurements indicated an output impedance of 11 milliohms at 1 kHz, 14 milliohms at 5 kHz, 20 milliohms at 10 kHz, and only 28 milliohms at 20 kHz. Low end damping factor at 50 Hz (which, let's face it, is as low as MMGs go) was 760 - certainly adequate, but not extreme. IHF tone bursts into 4 ohm loads rated at 500 watts per channel – when the music has a point to drive home, I am definitely aware of it. If your proclivities lean more to steady state blasting, its 1% THD point at 4 ohms measured 300 watts.
So what; it has muscle and control, but how graceful is it? Using the IHF standards, the A weighted noise floor rated at -99.3 dBW. That works out to a signal to noise ration of 122.3 dB at rated power – black as night in the deep country. One of the distinguishing design characteristics of the truly top-drawer amplifiers is a separate power supply for each channel, which is one area where the Acurus gives up a little refinement – but only a little after all. Crosstalk bettered -90 dB from 20 Hz to 12 kHz which is pretty solid, and only rose to -61 dB at 20 kHz across the worst offending channels of the 3 in this case. Also between any 2 channels, the balance never varied more than 0.03 dB. Frequency response is within +0.0, -0.1 dB from below 10 Hz to 50 kHz. In fact, the -1.0 dB point is 140 Hz – wideband is good.
Its input sensitivity makes an easy load for any preamp. It’ll output a watt into 8 ohms with an 89 mV input, and reaches rated power with 1.26 volts. Its design simplicity also reminds me of Maggies – a simple, easy to manufacture layout. E-Stat mentioned a 26 cent op amp in the signal path of a Behringer. Well, if you seek an IC anywhere under the hood of this thing, your search will be in vain. Flip the power switch and it simply begins its performance – no thumps (ever). Flipping off the power switch might drive an Alzheimer’s sufferer a little crazy – such an individual would forget that he’d turned the damn thing off before the sound ever started to change in any way. It only announces its awakened state with a small lamp above the switch – no frills (but the recessed name plate of the newer model looks elegant to me). There are no electrolytic capacitors in the signal path either. There you’ll only find components such as 1% metal film resistors, metallized-polypropylene caps and the like. It does without output protection chokes – it doesn’t fear a difficult load.
There is one currently listed on Audiogon for $450. None of the foregoing was intended to be a challenge to any high-end amp. I only wish to justify my statement that the A200 is a well made and musical amplifier. I think it represents a bargain on a par with a pair of MMGs, except that it doesn’t beg to be tweaked (with the exception of a better power cord). I'm not suggesting that this is the amp you (Bullfrog) *need* to buy either; I merely wish to point out what another couple hundred bucks can do!
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ ♬
There you’ll only find components such as ...metallized-polypropylene capsThe electrolytic coupling capacitors on the op amps. Another good cost savings move, but...
Here's the schematic of each amp board. Can you point out (just enumerate the C#s) the electrolytics?
is the parts list since the schematic is of no assistance in that regard. I would look around the op amps themselves. Here are some comments regarding tweaking a different Behringer product:FWIW, I have a Behringer EQ purchased for use with my HT subs. Just don't run it full range!
All this talk about Behringer - I don't own a Behringer anything. My amp is an Acurus A200 by Mondial, and to the best of my knowledge, it has precisely 2 electrolytic caps - you can't miss them.
Thought we were still on Behringer topic....it has precisely 2 electrolytic caps.
Not that they are in the signal path, but I see five. I too, would prefer an all discrete design like your Acurus.
Yep, I see the same number. In any case, I do think a simple, discrete design like this one is preferable. There are NO electrolytics in the signal path - of that I am certain. It may not use the finest components out there, but it is built with quality parts. It's a tough little devil too. As I said elsewhere, I know it isn't exactly an audiophile amp, but it doesn't give up too much to one. It's the best sounding amp I've ever owned - that list includes components from Marantz, Kenwood, Adcom, Carver, SAE, Yamaha, Sony, NAD and Parasound.
I knew I couldn't type anything that long without messing up somewhere! The -1 dB point is 140 kHz (otherwise it would only be good for a subwoofer amp).
That sounds like one to look into. It is the first one I have seen at this price range that sounds like it may also be able to do something with the 3a's suggested 32Hz-40Khz response.
I never suggested that this amp is the equal of a Pass. It's merely a decent "budget" amp which *I* think is a preferable alternative to a pro amp. Others are free to disagree. I'll never forget the laugh I had at a recent newspaper headline which stated, "Opinions vary..." That's the very nature of opinions! In my opinion, it is an excellent bargain.
First of all, I have NO problem with anyone who buys something because it's all they can afford right now. ALL of us (well, most of us) had to start someplace we'd rather not have. (and most of us still are not where we might wish to be) I had an Adcom GFA-555 first and guess what, it's a piece of crap! :^ ) At the time I didn't think so, but I at least knew enough not to run around telling everyone it was as good or better than what they own like some behringer owners do.My problem is with those people who have been shilling it around here that the behringer is as good or better than what most audiophiles own. This discussion has been happening almost every month for some time now, and that's what I'm tired of. My point is simply it is not, and MUCH better alternatives can be had for hardly much more, and that by buying one you would actually be wasting your money.
Second, it sounds to me like you are suffering from an affliction many budding audiophiles have. You think you are in some big stakes room here, and you don't have the chips or the experience to feel you can sit at the table. If you go back and re-read my post I never told you or anyone you have to spend thousands to be happy, so it must be that feeling that produced comments like I "thrift shopped" you or that you need to tell your wife you're spending 3 grand. I never implied you or anyone had to "play the game or get out" and I didn't mention any figure, (let alone one that big) nor would I need to. You can add a CJ Sonographe SA250 or MF-200 to your list of amps that can be had used for hardly more than that behringer and would kill it. I'm as cheap and thrifty as anyone and if you go thru my old posts you'll see I always refer good cheap gear to people and rarely mention $$ stuff.
I thought I made it clear that what we are after is better sound and I did not imply it came with a price tag. I only said you do get what you pay for, generally, which is true.
So to clarify things for you, you don't need to feel bad, and you don't need to spend a fortune. What is not generally understood by a lot of newcommers is that price does not mean good (a LOT of high end stuff simply doesn't live up to the hype) and there are a lot of "home" enterprises (signal cable, mapletree, bottlehead etc...) who make things of very affordable price that often humble higher priced gear. Second, there is a great divide between mass market audio and those striving for true audiophile quality, and price is not an issue. You could spend a fortune on some giant Dennon umpteen (yes, umpteen isn't a word either, work with me...) channel home theater receiver which will sound like complete sh!t while a used Eastern Electric M520 integrated tube amp would kill it for roughly the same price. They are not even comparable.
I hope I made myself clear, and I hope you spend your $$ wisely, and happily. That was my only hope.
Well, I for one never claimed the EP1500 was better than any high end amps. Not having done any direct comparisons would have made such a statement rediculous. You state that you've heard this particular amp and don't like it. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Not everyone shares the same opinion though. You stated you don't like the bigger Magies with true ribbon tweeters, but Magnepan still manages to sell plenty of 'em though.What the original poster should know is that getting a unanimous agreement on anything around here, other than Maggies are great, is just about impossible =^) . If he hangs around long enough, he will get plenty of ideas on how to improve his system though ;^] .
You really are taking this way too personally.For the thousandth time I never said YOU were the one saying these things about this amp, so stop defending an attack which was never made.
In any event, you cannot compare models of high end goods and say it's the same as comparing a behringer to a BAT amp. And Budweiser also outsells Sam Adams, so now we're taking the thousand flies can't be wrong approach? (maybe I need to buy a bose wave radio then?) You keep telling me I can have my opinion, yet you keep attacking them and are using bad logic to back those attacks up.
There is no question in this hobby ignorance is bliss. My first "rig" was an NAD 3140 integrated. I LOVED it.
It sucks. (and I know, I still have it, it's in my kids room and is her stereo now)
Then I got an Adcom GFA-555. I loved that even more!
That really sucked.
Eventually I replaced it with a Sonographe SA250. Wow, now THAT was love.
And it didn't suck either.
Now I have a Pass X250. It's beyond love. If I had you here for an hour with it, and then stuck the behringer in, you'd throw up. It's that simple. It's not arrogance, haughtiness, betterment, mines bigger than yours etc... it just is.
It just is. And you can hate it, like it, love it or do as you will with it, but it just is. I get that most people won't start with that amp. I sure didn't. But they have a right to know there is a difference and some options (like the sono) can be had for almost the price of the behringer.
Now lets go have a bud :^ )
Now throttling down a bit, hehe. I was actually responding more in defense of the product rather than a personal attack. Which, by the way, I don't recall you ever doing.I've read enough of your postings to get the feeling that you know what you're talking about. Your original reply concerning the EP1500 was kinda, um, strong. Am I right that it was in the context of speaking to those comparing the amp to genuine audiophile grade amps?
I think we're debating apples & oranges here. In the range of mid-fi gear, I still think the Behringer is good stuff. Going beyond that, I for one certainly expect true hi-end gear to perform better and I'll be glad to go there when budget and circumstance allows.
For now, I'll settle for taking my SQ as far as I can with what I have now.
Now if I can find out from E-Stat just where that $0.26 Op-amp is located in there..., and what to upgrade it with > 8-].
BTW, I haven't tried a Sam Adams yet. Oh it's on the "to-try" list alright ;^) .
I don't drink any alcohol, doesn't sit with me. I prefer a nice herbal iced tea. :^ )I am very glad you realized I was not haranguing you. What bothered me originally is this forum exists to discuss how to fix our problems, upgrade our gear, and learn what's best and works best together. Yet if you look back at the past year, behringer amps get brought up here more than anything else by a HUGE margin. (And that should not be. No one amp is the solution to everyones situation, least of all that one)
That happened because a small cadre of people kept constantly posting about it like it was the end of the world. New people who wander in (and who are inexperienced and trying to save money at the same time) read these posts and they start propagating the problem as well.
Every week now it seems we see another post asking "So, how about them behringer amps?" It has gotten out of hand and it needs to be addressed. None of us here have any problem answering questions about it or any other piece of gear, but certain truths do exist and the sooner we can get people to accept that, the better it will be for everyone. An archive here full of posts from people who don't know much saying "it's the best amp in the world" is not helping anyone, let alone new people who wander in knowing less. Maggies owners take a lot of flack and ribbing from other audiophiles who don't or won't get it, and all of us using behringer amps to drive them won't do much to alter that perception either :^ )
The hard part is everyone has bought at least one piece of gear or hardware that did not live up to expectations. The problem is a lot of people will then go and lie about it because they don't want to look stupid or feel they made a mistake spending so much on something that they aren't happy with. There are also those who actually do like it, but only because their sphere of experience is so small, there is nothing to compare it to. I was in that camp when I was young.
So your line "I still think the Behringer is good stuff" is fine, I could have said that about my Adcom once too. But you have to trust us when we say they're really not, neither of them, and better isn't all that much farther away.
I'm thrilled you're on board now :^ ) You scrape up $500 and buy the first used Conrad Johnson Sonographe SA250 you find. If it's not love, I'll buy it from you for what you paid. Then we can get Mart to put a new link at the top here, F-BOG - "Former Behringer Owners Group"
Moderator - "Why don't you stand up and introduce yourself"
(stands) "Hello, My name is Frank"
(everyone) "Hi Frank"
Frank - I used to own a behringer amp...
(everyone nods in understanding)
Moderator - "Do you have tinnitus Frank?"
Frank - "Thank God no, someone stopped me just in time."
(everyone cheers)
I think it was all those years of auto sound abuse. I always tuned my systems for SQ so ironically, I ended up listening to it louder.Now stop teasing me with stuff I can't get, yet...
Funny thing is, I have alot of friends who'll say "You spent all that and it only does Stereo?".
I think that's better than the "friends" who see, or worse hear your maggies and say..."you don't like bass, do ya..."
:^ )
The money angle is funny too. My father wanted to hear my system once and so I played it for him. He said he really liked it although how well he can hear is debateable, but then he asked how much it cost, if I don't mind telling. I said how much do you think it all cost?
He said, "I don't know, 6 or 7 hundred?" :^ )
Sorry to hear about the tinnitus. That blows. I'm very lucky. I was way too up front at too many overly loud concerts in the 80's and on many occasions had BAD ringing for a day or two afterwards but it always went away for me.
Unless one's friends are audiophiles, they never get it.
I have no illusions about the place an Acurus amplifier holds in the world of audio - it *is* mid-fi. Compare it directly to a Pass and you'll want to pass on the Acurus...until the sticker shock brings you to your senses (unless your pockets are substantially deeper than mine). On the other hand, Mondial's no-nonsense approach and simple circuit design permitted them to populate their modestly priced amp with quality components from end to end. I'm sure there are other companies that do the same thing - there *are* choices for those of us trying to stay within a tight budget.I've never listened to a pro amp, so I cannot make *any* comments about how one might sound, but I think I'm correct in assuming that fidelity takes a back seat to efficiency in their design. I think this is the point PG was making with his statement about tinnitus. Hey, I've been wrong before and I could be wrong here. I did audition a class H amp in the late '70s made by Soundcraftsman - the Adcom GFA-555 which PG criticizes sounded far better (and yeah, that’s what I .bought).
On a lighter note, I lived in Germany for a few years in the early '80s. Before living there I hated beer. German bier opened my eyes (or taste buds) to the reality which beers such as Budweiser or Heineken had been hiding from me - beer can actually have flavor. Sam Adams is the only American mass-brew I know which can compete with German bier, but beware - it is rich with flavor. Anyone who likes Miller Light will probably find a Sam Adams tough to swallow. If you're ready to actually *taste* something, then by all means start sampling the various flavors of Sam Adams - there are many!
While we’re making some jokes, here’s one I’ll try to type delicately about American beer:
How is American beer like sex in a canoe?
Their both f*#%ing close to water.
Did you just take me back! I forgot all about those ugly tanks with a billion lights. God, you ain't half right, they sound awful. The Adcom is better, but a broken finger is better than a broken leg....I found this. It was an interesting time, when companies like this were still pandering to the 70's crowd who expected a million bells and whistles, (and how it sounded was the last concern) and new companies like conrad johnson who were making the exact opposite, preamps with just 2 dials on them AND tubes. And we all know who won that war :^ )
Too bad you don't live near me. We have a beer distributor here called Shangys and they stock almost any beer made anywhere in the world including lots of US micro brews.
The first response didn't show up when I returned to this page a couple hours later. I typed up another one and posted it, then the other one magically appeared. Sorry for being redundant, but I have an excuse (I hope).
That amp at the bottom of the page is the one I was referencing. I think it was the first class H amplifier on the market. A salesman was trying to get me interested in one as opposed to an Adcom GFA-555. He tried to convince me that it was way better and more powerful and cheaper! It was cheaper; that was certain. I thought it sounded horrible compared to the Adcom. That was my first, and only experience with a "pro" amp.I did buy a Carver M400t on a whim once. It was kind of impressive that such a small, lightweight amplifier could produce such power, but it didn't sound good. Power isn't everything. Like you said, we've all made purchases we'd probably rather not admit (what the heck, I'm not really ashamed).
Some day I hope to purchase a real high-end amplifier, but I'm okay with my Acurus for now - it isn't the weak link in my system.
Oooh, micro-brews! There's one in Davis, California called Sudwerk that brews superb beer. Good for you that you don't drink. I don't drink much, but I do enjoy the occasional beer. I also used to enjoy some fantastic wine when I lived in Germany - had a wine shop, a cheese shop and a bakery almost right across the street. The beer was delivered to my doorstep, just like milk was when I was a youth. Ahhh, the good old days...
That's it on the bottom of the page. Someone was trying to convince me that the class H Soundcraftsmen would be a better choice than an Adcom GFA-555 - more power for less money. Maybe their margins were higher on the Soundcraftsmen because there was no comparison - the Adcom was far superior. I think that was the first class H amplifier on the market and it gave me a bad impression of the signal tracking power supply designs.The ad is talking up the new digital format, so I'd guess it's circa 1982. Like an idiot, I bought a little Carver M-400t in '83 (I think). It amazed me that such a lightweight little amp could deliver so much power, but it wasn't a stellar performer. Like you said, we've all made purchases we'd rather not admit.
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