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Hello,
This is my first post. I just bought my first pair of Maggies. I have been reading a few posts about the Behringer EP1500 amp. I have an Carver A500X now that just dose not seem to be doing the job for me by itself. Its not loud enough and It lacks a little bass. That seems commend in Maggies in genaral, but it is also blowing the fuses after playing only a short time. The sound has a slight static but no clipping. I was wondering if that might be do to not enough power and what you guys thought about the Behringer and the MG IIIa's together. I am using a Harmon Kardon AVR80 receiver as a pre amp if that helps.
Follow Ups:
Similar power, certainly honest to rating power, plus built in DSP for less than $700 plus made in the good ol' USA!
But its design theme seems diametrically opposed to this amplifier's. The SL-2 was about as simple as a preamp could be - and pure, glorious class A! Please don't take this the wrong way (these are just opinions/preferences), but I question the desirability of DSP in an amplifier.When I shopped for a bargain pre/pro, one primary criterion was that it be endowed with a 6 channel throughput that *stayed* analog - that's less common that you'd think. Once the signal leaves my SACD player, I want as little done to it as possible.
Just how many brands are under the ownership of Harman International? It's nice to hear that Crown is still manufacturing in the US.
"but I question the desirability of DSP in an amplifier."It really does not matter, as it is all down to implementation and the intended use. The presence of DSP (xover, EQ etc) in the amplifier makes it very versatile at a reasonable cost. And potentially capable of providing excellent results if well configured.
"When I shopped for a bargain pre/pro, one primary criterion was that it be endowed with a 6 channel throughput that *stayed* analog - that's less common that you'd think. Once the signal leaves my SACD player, I want as little done to it as possible. "
It is a case of horses for courses, having owned (and still own) a couple of the SACD players over the years, some of them very respectable, I will say that some of the best sound that has come out of my system has been when the SACD analog signal has been *DSPed*, I find room and/or speaker induced tonal uneveness etc much more onerous to me than any supposed DSP artefacts. Applying DSP, makes the rig sound more musically pleasing.
That's the beauty of theaudiohobby! Maybe it's age (and I'm not quite 50), but I don't want anything else to screw with when I want to listen to something. I also *prefer* simpler designs, especially in budget devices.I concede your point, but I reserve the right maintain different priorities. My REL Q200 has a gain pot that offers all the tweaking I need to attain mesmerizing results. It is, by the way, wired in parallel with my MMGs, which are running full-range. With the help of their little friend, the slight boominess the MMGs exhibit on their own fades into oblivion.
I'm happy. You're happy. What else matters?
I also have a GAS son of Ampzilla. If I bi-amped the MG IIIa's with the Carver on the BASS and the Son of Ampzilla on the MID/TWTR. Might that help? It seems it would be less revealing of the Carvers faults. And the GAS tube amp may be cleaner?
Thanks... Bullfrogg
It couldn't hurt, and should be worth a try.I still think there may be something wrong with the setup if fuses are blowing.
Yes I agree. With that said. In all fairness I did have things a bit loud. And I guess I idea on the fuse in the first place is that it blow, before they clip and damege them self. I am just thinking out loud. I'll try the bi amp for now, until I find I better option.
Thanks ... Bullfrogg
In defense of the Behringr EP1500, NOTHING at it's price, new, is going to beat it. It's revealing enough that you should use a good PC with it. It's not the be-all and end-all of amps, but alot of people who have tried it, have been suprised.
The extra $$ saved can be put towards a pre-amp. I do agree about that though. At first I ran my MMG's with an power amp driven by a very well reviewed HT receiver, but the more modest pre I switched to, bettered the receiver easily.
I am really tired of this debate because I really don't like the fact that it makes most of us seem like snobs. However, this forum doesn't exist to prompt people to get an amp they can buy at shopping.com for 300 bucks.Can we bury this stinking horse once and for all? Does anyone REALLY think they are getting the equal of any decently made high end product for $300? You yourself said even a modest preamp beat the piss out of your "HT receiver". Of course it did, we've all been saying that from the beginning and the same goes for this. In this life you get what you pay for. (that doesn't mean most expensive is best, but it also doesn't mean practically free is either) You pay nothing for the Behringer, you getting nothing in return. I've heard it, it's awful.
Everyone, repeat....
IT'S....A....PIECE....OF....CRAP
I....DON'T....WANT....ONE
I....AM....NOT....A....D-JAY
And for only a couple of hundred more you can get used amps that would murder this thing. Go buy the Hypex class D amp kit for example.
I have said this before and I say it again, Behringer amps are made to give people tinnitus at weddings. The word "music" has nothing to do with them. This board and community exist to help people get the best sound for their money, and THIS is not it. Too many people with extremely limited backgrounds have been pushing this brand here for too long and it has to stop. Here, this will be the symbol of our crusade.....
has anyone noticed how similar "Behringer" is to "Earinger"? Sorry, I couldn't resist - "Behringer amps are made to give people tinnitus at weddings." LOL - It's right in the name!It's just like "Congress" - if con is the opposite of pro, then Congress must be the opposite of progress (sure as hell works out that way).
I'm sorry - it was only a joke.
I too noticed that when I made the stupid image. Their logo is a shrill looking ear and the word ring is not only there, it's almost all highlighted. :^ )The only one I know is "What's the difference between the library of congress and the congress?
In the library of congress you can't lick the pages."
The only one I know is "What's the difference between the library of congress and the congress?In the library of congress you can't lick the pages."
Please...don't give 'em any ideas.
" Does anyone REALLY think they are getting the equal of any decently made high end product for $300?"SOME people here besides me actually LIKE the amp. I guess you think any amp the EP1500 gets chosen over can't be regarded as high-end in your eyes.
"You pay nothing for the Behringer, you getting nothing in return."
It's unfortunate that you seem to think of $300 as nothing. My response was intended to tell the OP that for $300 and a decent pre-amp he could "beat the piss" out of what he has now.
You can spend "a couple of hundred more" and get a better amp. Is this supposed to be a revelation to anyone?
You've heard it and you think it sounds awful, there are others here who don't agree.
Speaking for my own experience, I may not have listened to as much high-end equipment as some other members, but I've heard plenty of music performed LIVE any MY ears do know what sounds good. Anything that sounds awful doesn't stay in the system for long.
I'm not pushing a brand or Pro-Audio amps at all. Just relating MY experience about an item the original poster inquired about.
Bullfrog, you've read alot about the amp simply because there is something to it. Here's something you could try. Someone once suggested finding a music store that rents gear. You can try one out and be out nothing more than a rental fee if you don't like it. At least you could decide for yourself.
Thanks RickyM.
I think I understood your post as you intended it. And I did appreciate your thoughts. And you hit the nail on the head. I did not think I would get a $300 that would perform as well as a high end more expensive one. I was just looking for something that would be better than what I have, until my wife forgot about the 3's. And the rental idea may be just what I am looking for. Try before you buy..... I love it! Thanks
Not only have you mis-stated my point, you took the entire post (which was as much comical as anything) WAY too personally, and that in large measure is what's wrong with this world anymore.My problem lies with those few (who I did not state you were one of) who with little or no experience have been claiming this amp beats "all comers", even CJ, Pass, BAT, Classe etc etc... even though they never even heard any of the others.
That is simply rediculous, and a line needs to be drawn in the sand in regards to them saying it. It has nothing to do with what one can afford.
I spend 300 bucks on groceries, it is not the world it was when I was 21 and starting out when 300 really was a lot. You cannot even buy used good stuff for 300 dollars and expect manufacturers to stay in business. (hell, an Ipod costs more) I think making and selling it new for less speaks volumes... and you don't. And there's the rub. Apparently you think you can have your say, but you take exception at the fact I too have one. At least I was humorous and not uppity about it. (BTW, I have a feeling I have heard just as much live music as you (and possibly a lot, lot more) and this was even true 20 years ago when I had the Adcom I thought was great, so this means what?)
"Just relating MY experience about an item the original poster inquired about" - Yes, and with an apparently stuck caps lock. And was I doing no differently? This is SUPPOSED to be a forum where ALL of us come and express OPINIONS freely and others are FREE to make of them what they will, and take or leave what they want.
So simply put, I would not recommend this amp to my best friend, and you would.
And the rest can decide who their friends are.
Hi Peter,
Sorry that I come across poorly. I was only poking fun at the snob comment. I did not take anything personally. I have been reading your posts, ( before mine ) and can see you have been at this for some time. I also read that you have a store, and mod. several modes. I am quite sure you have far more experience than I. No pun or disrespect intended. I do respect your opinions and do thank you for them. I only posted the way I did as a joke, no harm intended. I ended with a laughing reference and only ribbing comment. I guess the moral is anyone can misunderstand a written post. They lack the verbal tones and cues needed sometimes to fully understand the true intent.
Sorry.... Bullfrogg
I agree it's hard to "talk" without the human element present. Subtle cues let one understand it's not all that serious or just a plain old joke and that's all missing here. I think it's one of the reasons our society is growing so overly touchy.So no apologies needed mate. And a good tussle is always fine in any case. There is nothing like beating a rug good to get the dust out. :^ )
Hey Pg,I am so over this Behringer stuff, some people like it, some don't, but I do find it interesting that even the PRO guys don't recommend this stuff...apparently Behringer is not "good" pro gear.
ANyhow, IS there such a thing as "Live" music these days. I mean if you are not going to the symphony or opera (and even then) aren't you just listening to AMPLIFIED music preformed live??
IMHO all the amplified music I have heard usually sounds like crap, so I am not certain that makes anyone a judge if that is what one means by "live" music.
I too have heard a great deal of live music that sounded like crap. But I have heard chamber music in a small venue that was chilling. I've also heard jazz in small clubs that was enjoyable. I used to attend a classical performance now and then when I lived in Atlanta, and they generally sounded superb. There were even a few rock concerts at the Fox that sounded alright. For the most part, however, most live performances I've heard were overdriven punishment - maybe a Behringer is the perfect amp for recreating the amplified concert!
I was actually going to say that but thought better of it.Live music? (insert eye roll) Every concert is a stack of worn out marshall stacks being over driven by crap gear at ear piercing volumes. If someone is using that as a comparison, a behringer probably would sound about right :^ )
I have seen bands that get it, (and have seen some fight with the guy at the board because he wanted it turned up more than they did) but you are correct, unamplified music is the only near true stuff. Even then it is effected by the venue.
BTW, I don't and never did care if anyone wants behringer gear, I am upset that some of them say it's better than gear they don't own and never heard, that's all. I expressed the angst as a joke which as usual nobody got. :^ )
Until I actually A-B a Behringer with an audiophile amp I am going to keep an open mind. I have to hear the results with my own ears then make my own evaluation.There are many reasons why a pro amp should be no less than an audiophile amp. If you open up a pro amp you will notice that the same components are used. In many cases the power supply is actually more robust in a pro amp.
Just curious. Which audiophile amps use the $.26 NJM4580 op amp Behringer uses in the signal path?
Can you tell me where that particular Op-amp is located in there? I'd like to take a crack at an upgrade if one is avalable. Op-amps are relatively cheap and easy to install. Heck, I've already voided the warranty with new speaker binding posts and a couple of other tricks.
In another cost savings move (which is a good thing for consumer electronics), it appears that Behringer chose a compact SO-8 SMT package which may be difficult to find pin for pin replacements.
No delusions of giant killing, but if you can get a noticeable improvements for a few bucks investment.
Back in the 70s, I had a Dyna PAT-5 which originally came with a pair of LM301s that left a good bit to be desired. I sent it to Jensen's (Frank Van Alstine) for an update that included a switch to LF356 JFETs.About that same time, I owned the Acoustat X speaker. With that, switching op amps was easy because of the socketed format they chose. I upgraded those to TL084s (I think).
But...I have heard one, so my mind is made.
A gremlin has the same tires, gas, steel etc.. as a porsche. It ain't a porsche...
The people pushing this amp have not garnered the experience you are talking about. They don't know, yet they push it anyway. It's that lack of objectivity and credibility that bothers me. If they took your approach we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Thank you for the help guys. I will look at the suggestions you gave me. ( Acurus A200, Classe M350, HK 1.5- 5.1- 7.1, And even Mr. Gunn's Hypex Class D Amp kit.) But I do have to say to Mr. Gunn. For someone that is "really tired of this debate because I really don't like the fact that it makes most of us seem like snobs." Because " this forum doesn't exist to prompt people to get an amp they can buy at shopping.com for 300 bucks." And your "A gremlin has the same tires, gas, steel etc.. as a porsche. It ain't a porsche..." analogy. You do a bang up job to debunk the stigmatism. You made me feel as if I was thrift store shopping at a high end audio store, that I had my nerve even walking into.... Meteorically speaking. I was just hoping to avoid telling my wife that I wanted to spend another $3000 of my kids college fund. To get the speakers I just bought... that she is already not very happy about, to work properly.
Thanks again... Bullfrogg
P.S. ain't is not a word and porsche should be capitalized. :) LMHO just a little ribbing.
To be fair, the issue of Behringer (or some other pro amp) comes up in these threads somewhat frequently. I don't think PG was really directing any of his statements at you. He owns a Pass X250 which is a very fine amplifier, as is a Classe M350, but inexpensive they aren't (even used at $3000, that's a substantial investment for a single component). I've heard a Pass amp driving a nice pair of MLs and it was "to die for". Then again, his system was more expensive than my car.That, I think, is the rub for most of us. We *know* we would *rather* have the $10,000 amplifier, but responsibilities (or marital peace) preclude such expenditures. The Acurus I mentioned is *not* in the same league as either the Pass or the Classe - if cost were no object, I wouldn't own the A200. But, cost *is* an object for me and A/B comparisons have proven to me that the $1100 (I think that was the MSRP) Acurus is no slouch - too bad Mondial sold out to Klipsch and the Acurus line was sacrificed. Let's just say that I'm not itching to upgrade.
I am sensitive to your sensibilities and having read many posts written by PG, I'm sure he isn't rubbing anything in anyone's face. The point he made in his initial post marries precisely with the one I made - you might be able to pick up a new Behringer for $300, but for a couple hundred more you can pick up a used amp that would put it to shame. There are quite a few excellent choices from which to choose.
If you're careful, you can find some fantastic bargains on audiogon; they can even be found on eBay. I only mentioned the A200 because I think it's a better option than the Behringer and I *know* I like it - others may not. But for any reader who may be thinking I'm promoting a piece of crap because the thing didn't cost enough, please consider the following information – I apologize for the verbosity of it all.
It was made in the USA and if you send an email to one of the engineers who still supports this product, you will receive a personable and helpful response. Does this remind anyone of the manufacturer of this chap's speakers (who, by the way is still a vibrant American manufacturer - sorry, it's where I live so I'm partial)?
A review of the older 200x3 (the A200 is really the update of the original A250 2-channel amp) which appeared in Audio Magazine in 1995 praised its low, uniform output impedance. Measurements indicated an output impedance of 11 milliohms at 1 kHz, 14 milliohms at 5 kHz, 20 milliohms at 10 kHz, and only 28 milliohms at 20 kHz. Low end damping factor at 50 Hz (which, let's face it, is as low as MMGs go) was 760 - certainly adequate, but not extreme. IHF tone bursts into 4 ohm loads rated at 500 watts per channel – when the music has a point to drive home, I am definitely aware of it. If your proclivities lean more to steady state blasting, its 1% THD point at 4 ohms measured 300 watts.
So what; it has muscle and control, but how graceful is it? Using the IHF standards, the A weighted noise floor rated at -99.3 dBW. That works out to a signal to noise ration of 122.3 dB at rated power – black as night in the deep country. One of the distinguishing design characteristics of the truly top-drawer amplifiers is a separate power supply for each channel, which is one area where the Acurus gives up a little refinement – but only a little after all. Crosstalk bettered -90 dB from 20 Hz to 12 kHz which is pretty solid, and only rose to -61 dB at 20 kHz across the worst offending channels of the 3 in this case. Also between any 2 channels, the balance never varied more than 0.03 dB. Frequency response is within +0.0, -0.1 dB from below 10 Hz to 50 kHz. In fact, the -1.0 dB point is 140 Hz – wideband is good.
Its input sensitivity makes an easy load for any preamp. It’ll output a watt into 8 ohms with an 89 mV input, and reaches rated power with 1.26 volts. Its design simplicity also reminds me of Maggies – a simple, easy to manufacture layout. E-Stat mentioned a 26 cent op amp in the signal path of a Behringer. Well, if you seek an IC anywhere under the hood of this thing, your search will be in vain. Flip the power switch and it simply begins its performance – no thumps (ever). Flipping off the power switch might drive an Alzheimer’s sufferer a little crazy – such an individual would forget that he’d turned the damn thing off before the sound ever started to change in any way. It only announces its awakened state with a small lamp above the switch – no frills (but the recessed name plate of the newer model looks elegant to me). There are no electrolytic capacitors in the signal path either. There you’ll only find components such as 1% metal film resistors, metallized-polypropylene caps and the like. It does without output protection chokes – it doesn’t fear a difficult load.
There is one currently listed on Audiogon for $450. None of the foregoing was intended to be a challenge to any high-end amp. I only wish to justify my statement that the A200 is a well made and musical amplifier. I think it represents a bargain on a par with a pair of MMGs, except that it doesn’t beg to be tweaked (with the exception of a better power cord). I'm not suggesting that this is the amp you (Bullfrog) *need* to buy either; I merely wish to point out what another couple hundred bucks can do!
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ ♬
There you’ll only find components such as ...metallized-polypropylene capsThe electrolytic coupling capacitors on the op amps. Another good cost savings move, but...
Here's the schematic of each amp board. Can you point out (just enumerate the C#s) the electrolytics?
is the parts list since the schematic is of no assistance in that regard. I would look around the op amps themselves. Here are some comments regarding tweaking a different Behringer product:FWIW, I have a Behringer EQ purchased for use with my HT subs. Just don't run it full range!
All this talk about Behringer - I don't own a Behringer anything. My amp is an Acurus A200 by Mondial, and to the best of my knowledge, it has precisely 2 electrolytic caps - you can't miss them.
Thought we were still on Behringer topic....it has precisely 2 electrolytic caps.
Not that they are in the signal path, but I see five. I too, would prefer an all discrete design like your Acurus.
Yep, I see the same number. In any case, I do think a simple, discrete design like this one is preferable. There are NO electrolytics in the signal path - of that I am certain. It may not use the finest components out there, but it is built with quality parts. It's a tough little devil too. As I said elsewhere, I know it isn't exactly an audiophile amp, but it doesn't give up too much to one. It's the best sounding amp I've ever owned - that list includes components from Marantz, Kenwood, Adcom, Carver, SAE, Yamaha, Sony, NAD and Parasound.
I knew I couldn't type anything that long without messing up somewhere! The -1 dB point is 140 kHz (otherwise it would only be good for a subwoofer amp).
That sounds like one to look into. It is the first one I have seen at this price range that sounds like it may also be able to do something with the 3a's suggested 32Hz-40Khz response.
I never suggested that this amp is the equal of a Pass. It's merely a decent "budget" amp which *I* think is a preferable alternative to a pro amp. Others are free to disagree. I'll never forget the laugh I had at a recent newspaper headline which stated, "Opinions vary..." That's the very nature of opinions! In my opinion, it is an excellent bargain.
First of all, I have NO problem with anyone who buys something because it's all they can afford right now. ALL of us (well, most of us) had to start someplace we'd rather not have. (and most of us still are not where we might wish to be) I had an Adcom GFA-555 first and guess what, it's a piece of crap! :^ ) At the time I didn't think so, but I at least knew enough not to run around telling everyone it was as good or better than what they own like some behringer owners do.My problem is with those people who have been shilling it around here that the behringer is as good or better than what most audiophiles own. This discussion has been happening almost every month for some time now, and that's what I'm tired of. My point is simply it is not, and MUCH better alternatives can be had for hardly much more, and that by buying one you would actually be wasting your money.
Second, it sounds to me like you are suffering from an affliction many budding audiophiles have. You think you are in some big stakes room here, and you don't have the chips or the experience to feel you can sit at the table. If you go back and re-read my post I never told you or anyone you have to spend thousands to be happy, so it must be that feeling that produced comments like I "thrift shopped" you or that you need to tell your wife you're spending 3 grand. I never implied you or anyone had to "play the game or get out" and I didn't mention any figure, (let alone one that big) nor would I need to. You can add a CJ Sonographe SA250 or MF-200 to your list of amps that can be had used for hardly more than that behringer and would kill it. I'm as cheap and thrifty as anyone and if you go thru my old posts you'll see I always refer good cheap gear to people and rarely mention $$ stuff.
I thought I made it clear that what we are after is better sound and I did not imply it came with a price tag. I only said you do get what you pay for, generally, which is true.
So to clarify things for you, you don't need to feel bad, and you don't need to spend a fortune. What is not generally understood by a lot of newcommers is that price does not mean good (a LOT of high end stuff simply doesn't live up to the hype) and there are a lot of "home" enterprises (signal cable, mapletree, bottlehead etc...) who make things of very affordable price that often humble higher priced gear. Second, there is a great divide between mass market audio and those striving for true audiophile quality, and price is not an issue. You could spend a fortune on some giant Dennon umpteen (yes, umpteen isn't a word either, work with me...) channel home theater receiver which will sound like complete sh!t while a used Eastern Electric M520 integrated tube amp would kill it for roughly the same price. They are not even comparable.
I hope I made myself clear, and I hope you spend your $$ wisely, and happily. That was my only hope.
Well, I for one never claimed the EP1500 was better than any high end amps. Not having done any direct comparisons would have made such a statement rediculous. You state that you've heard this particular amp and don't like it. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Not everyone shares the same opinion though. You stated you don't like the bigger Magies with true ribbon tweeters, but Magnepan still manages to sell plenty of 'em though.What the original poster should know is that getting a unanimous agreement on anything around here, other than Maggies are great, is just about impossible =^) . If he hangs around long enough, he will get plenty of ideas on how to improve his system though ;^] .
You really are taking this way too personally.For the thousandth time I never said YOU were the one saying these things about this amp, so stop defending an attack which was never made.
In any event, you cannot compare models of high end goods and say it's the same as comparing a behringer to a BAT amp. And Budweiser also outsells Sam Adams, so now we're taking the thousand flies can't be wrong approach? (maybe I need to buy a bose wave radio then?) You keep telling me I can have my opinion, yet you keep attacking them and are using bad logic to back those attacks up.
There is no question in this hobby ignorance is bliss. My first "rig" was an NAD 3140 integrated. I LOVED it.
It sucks. (and I know, I still have it, it's in my kids room and is her stereo now)
Then I got an Adcom GFA-555. I loved that even more!
That really sucked.
Eventually I replaced it with a Sonographe SA250. Wow, now THAT was love.
And it didn't suck either.
Now I have a Pass X250. It's beyond love. If I had you here for an hour with it, and then stuck the behringer in, you'd throw up. It's that simple. It's not arrogance, haughtiness, betterment, mines bigger than yours etc... it just is.
It just is. And you can hate it, like it, love it or do as you will with it, but it just is. I get that most people won't start with that amp. I sure didn't. But they have a right to know there is a difference and some options (like the sono) can be had for almost the price of the behringer.
Now lets go have a bud :^ )
Now throttling down a bit, hehe. I was actually responding more in defense of the product rather than a personal attack. Which, by the way, I don't recall you ever doing.I've read enough of your postings to get the feeling that you know what you're talking about. Your original reply concerning the EP1500 was kinda, um, strong. Am I right that it was in the context of speaking to those comparing the amp to genuine audiophile grade amps?
I think we're debating apples & oranges here. In the range of mid-fi gear, I still think the Behringer is good stuff. Going beyond that, I for one certainly expect true hi-end gear to perform better and I'll be glad to go there when budget and circumstance allows.
For now, I'll settle for taking my SQ as far as I can with what I have now.
Now if I can find out from E-Stat just where that $0.26 Op-amp is located in there..., and what to upgrade it with > 8-].
BTW, I haven't tried a Sam Adams yet. Oh it's on the "to-try" list alright ;^) .
I don't drink any alcohol, doesn't sit with me. I prefer a nice herbal iced tea. :^ )I am very glad you realized I was not haranguing you. What bothered me originally is this forum exists to discuss how to fix our problems, upgrade our gear, and learn what's best and works best together. Yet if you look back at the past year, behringer amps get brought up here more than anything else by a HUGE margin. (And that should not be. No one amp is the solution to everyones situation, least of all that one)
That happened because a small cadre of people kept constantly posting about it like it was the end of the world. New people who wander in (and who are inexperienced and trying to save money at the same time) read these posts and they start propagating the problem as well.
Every week now it seems we see another post asking "So, how about them behringer amps?" It has gotten out of hand and it needs to be addressed. None of us here have any problem answering questions about it or any other piece of gear, but certain truths do exist and the sooner we can get people to accept that, the better it will be for everyone. An archive here full of posts from people who don't know much saying "it's the best amp in the world" is not helping anyone, let alone new people who wander in knowing less. Maggies owners take a lot of flack and ribbing from other audiophiles who don't or won't get it, and all of us using behringer amps to drive them won't do much to alter that perception either :^ )
The hard part is everyone has bought at least one piece of gear or hardware that did not live up to expectations. The problem is a lot of people will then go and lie about it because they don't want to look stupid or feel they made a mistake spending so much on something that they aren't happy with. There are also those who actually do like it, but only because their sphere of experience is so small, there is nothing to compare it to. I was in that camp when I was young.
So your line "I still think the Behringer is good stuff" is fine, I could have said that about my Adcom once too. But you have to trust us when we say they're really not, neither of them, and better isn't all that much farther away.
I'm thrilled you're on board now :^ ) You scrape up $500 and buy the first used Conrad Johnson Sonographe SA250 you find. If it's not love, I'll buy it from you for what you paid. Then we can get Mart to put a new link at the top here, F-BOG - "Former Behringer Owners Group"
Moderator - "Why don't you stand up and introduce yourself"
(stands) "Hello, My name is Frank"
(everyone) "Hi Frank"
Frank - I used to own a behringer amp...
(everyone nods in understanding)
Moderator - "Do you have tinnitus Frank?"
Frank - "Thank God no, someone stopped me just in time."
(everyone cheers)
I think it was all those years of auto sound abuse. I always tuned my systems for SQ so ironically, I ended up listening to it louder.Now stop teasing me with stuff I can't get, yet...
Funny thing is, I have alot of friends who'll say "You spent all that and it only does Stereo?".
I think that's better than the "friends" who see, or worse hear your maggies and say..."you don't like bass, do ya..."
:^ )
The money angle is funny too. My father wanted to hear my system once and so I played it for him. He said he really liked it although how well he can hear is debateable, but then he asked how much it cost, if I don't mind telling. I said how much do you think it all cost?
He said, "I don't know, 6 or 7 hundred?" :^ )
Sorry to hear about the tinnitus. That blows. I'm very lucky. I was way too up front at too many overly loud concerts in the 80's and on many occasions had BAD ringing for a day or two afterwards but it always went away for me.
Unless one's friends are audiophiles, they never get it.
I have no illusions about the place an Acurus amplifier holds in the world of audio - it *is* mid-fi. Compare it directly to a Pass and you'll want to pass on the Acurus...until the sticker shock brings you to your senses (unless your pockets are substantially deeper than mine). On the other hand, Mondial's no-nonsense approach and simple circuit design permitted them to populate their modestly priced amp with quality components from end to end. I'm sure there are other companies that do the same thing - there *are* choices for those of us trying to stay within a tight budget.I've never listened to a pro amp, so I cannot make *any* comments about how one might sound, but I think I'm correct in assuming that fidelity takes a back seat to efficiency in their design. I think this is the point PG was making with his statement about tinnitus. Hey, I've been wrong before and I could be wrong here. I did audition a class H amp in the late '70s made by Soundcraftsman - the Adcom GFA-555 which PG criticizes sounded far better (and yeah, that’s what I .bought).
On a lighter note, I lived in Germany for a few years in the early '80s. Before living there I hated beer. German bier opened my eyes (or taste buds) to the reality which beers such as Budweiser or Heineken had been hiding from me - beer can actually have flavor. Sam Adams is the only American mass-brew I know which can compete with German bier, but beware - it is rich with flavor. Anyone who likes Miller Light will probably find a Sam Adams tough to swallow. If you're ready to actually *taste* something, then by all means start sampling the various flavors of Sam Adams - there are many!
While we’re making some jokes, here’s one I’ll try to type delicately about American beer:
How is American beer like sex in a canoe?
Their both f*#%ing close to water.
Did you just take me back! I forgot all about those ugly tanks with a billion lights. God, you ain't half right, they sound awful. The Adcom is better, but a broken finger is better than a broken leg....I found this. It was an interesting time, when companies like this were still pandering to the 70's crowd who expected a million bells and whistles, (and how it sounded was the last concern) and new companies like conrad johnson who were making the exact opposite, preamps with just 2 dials on them AND tubes. And we all know who won that war :^ )
Too bad you don't live near me. We have a beer distributor here called Shangys and they stock almost any beer made anywhere in the world including lots of US micro brews.
The first response didn't show up when I returned to this page a couple hours later. I typed up another one and posted it, then the other one magically appeared. Sorry for being redundant, but I have an excuse (I hope).
That amp at the bottom of the page is the one I was referencing. I think it was the first class H amplifier on the market. A salesman was trying to get me interested in one as opposed to an Adcom GFA-555. He tried to convince me that it was way better and more powerful and cheaper! It was cheaper; that was certain. I thought it sounded horrible compared to the Adcom. That was my first, and only experience with a "pro" amp.I did buy a Carver M400t on a whim once. It was kind of impressive that such a small, lightweight amplifier could produce such power, but it didn't sound good. Power isn't everything. Like you said, we've all made purchases we'd probably rather not admit (what the heck, I'm not really ashamed).
Some day I hope to purchase a real high-end amplifier, but I'm okay with my Acurus for now - it isn't the weak link in my system.
Oooh, micro-brews! There's one in Davis, California called Sudwerk that brews superb beer. Good for you that you don't drink. I don't drink much, but I do enjoy the occasional beer. I also used to enjoy some fantastic wine when I lived in Germany - had a wine shop, a cheese shop and a bakery almost right across the street. The beer was delivered to my doorstep, just like milk was when I was a youth. Ahhh, the good old days...
That's it on the bottom of the page. Someone was trying to convince me that the class H Soundcraftsmen would be a better choice than an Adcom GFA-555 - more power for less money. Maybe their margins were higher on the Soundcraftsmen because there was no comparison - the Adcom was far superior. I think that was the first class H amplifier on the market and it gave me a bad impression of the signal tracking power supply designs.The ad is talking up the new digital format, so I'd guess it's circa 1982. Like an idiot, I bought a little Carver M-400t in '83 (I think). It amazed me that such a lightweight little amp could deliver so much power, but it wasn't a stellar performer. Like you said, we've all made purchases we'd rather not admit.
I agree completely with what Dawnrazor stated. You *need* a high current amp to get lively sound out of a pair of Maggies. I already mentioned the following in a previous post, but answering your question may be a better venue for this question.Would anyone claim that class AB was created as an improvement to the fidelity of class A? Nope, it's all about efficiency. I suspect class H (or class D, or...) is to class AB as class AB is to class A (all about efficiency). Then again, I cannot make any statements about the relative merits of pro amps because I have *never* heard one. I did buy a Carver M400t (all about efficiency) once and I didn't like it (one motor-boating (among other things) little SOB).
I don't profess to be an expert, but I think a quality class AB amp with low, uniform output impedance, high current capability with deep tanks (big caps), and smooth, wideband frequency response is the better solution (than a pro amp). One doesn’t have to break the bank to obtain such an amp either. I’m not suggesting that I own the ideal amp, but I picked up a nice Acurus A200 that meets all of the aforementioned criteria for under $500 (even came with a monster of a PS Audio power cord). It’s a very simple amplifier design with very little global feedback – straightforward and solid. It’s not as refined as a Pass, but it wouldn’t be embarrassed by one either; it *would* embarrass a Carver amp – that much I guarantee.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but you need to significantly improve your amp and pre-amp, and probably the sources too.You have a Porsche with walmart tires and bad gas.
I had that same amp with my MMGs, and an Hk receiver as a pre amp. I had no problems running the MMgs, but as I upgraded, I realized just how much the entry level maggies were capable of when fed a first rate signal.
In my case, the HK was the weakest link, then the carver.
I am assuming that things are set up correctly, the speakers are in phase, and the amp worked fine on other speakers. Is this correct? YOu may want to check for some frayed wiring if you are using bare wire. Also, do you have it bridged by chance? And are the volume knobs set to THX?
The Behringer may solve some loudness problem but IMHO you still have very revealing speakers that need to be fed a much cleaner signal.
You may be able to passively bi-amp. ANDYR is the IIIA guru around here, and he may have better suggestions.
BUt, I really feel bad for your IIIas, they are thoroughbreds, and they are penned in and can't run like they should.
Again, I am not trying to be mean, its just that your speakers are capable of so much more, and Maggies can suck all the current you can give them, so feed them well.
Here is what I suggest: Look at the links below and see what 3 series owners are using (III, 3.3, 3.5, 3.6, etc) Contact them and ask their opinions:
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/search.mpl?searchtext=mg+III&b=OR&topic=&topics_only=N&author=&date1=&date2=&slowmessage=&sort=score&sortOrder=DESC&forum=systems
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/search.mpl?searchtext=mg+3.3&b=OR&topic=&topics_only=N&author=&date1=&date2=&slowmessage=&sort=score&sortOrder=DESC&forum=systems
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/search.mpl?searchtext=mg+3.5&b=OR&topic=&topics_only=N&author=&date1=&date2=&slowmessage=&sort=score&sortOrder=DESC&forum=systems
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/search.mpl?searchtext=mg+3.6&b=OR&topic=&topics_only=N&author=&date1=&date2=&slowmessage=&sort=score&sortOrder=DESC&forum=systems
In defense of HK: When I got my first pair of maggies,(2.5r), I ran them with a Harman Kardon MK25II receiver. Unless I was listening at ear splitting levels, it didn't clip. Then I upgraded to the MG3a's. They were rebuilt fresh from Magnepan. I sent the speakers back 3 times thinking there was something wrong, that HK receiver could not do anything with those speakers, every time I put any volume in to them, the panels would flap. I had also purchased a HK Signature 1.5 Amp, this was the light at the end of the tunnel. I've since moved on to Classe M350's. I still have my HK for backup, but I've listened to a few higher end amps connected to my maggies and for the money none of them did any better than the HK. The Classe is in a completely different class, so we won't go there. I was so happy with the way the HK sounded and so sure they could handle the load, I removed my fuses and never looked back. If you can find a HK Signature 1.5, I'd get it.
THe Classe is in another class!!!THis is the point I am making, that these speakers really deserve quality. SUre, the Behringer will work, as the HK did, but get the most out of your speakers, get something like a Classe.
THose panels need an amp that can drive them and still be refined.
FWIW, I had the AVI-200mkii which is the integrated version of the 25mkii. I am not saying that HK is bad...hell I owned it...but it is midfi and the Maggies deserve hifi!!!
I too had to send a panel back to Magnepan...funny how I haven't had that problem since I ditched the HK.
I am not trying to be snobby here, if you can find a good used amp, then spend $500 or so, but by all means get a good amp on those speakers.
YOu yourself are using an amp that is "in a different class" if the HK was so good, why did you change???
If I can answer for you, it is because the speakers deserve it!!!
LOL,you're preaching to the choir. I paid $3000 for my Classe, ($10,000) new. I paid $450 for my HK, ($1800) new. I love my Classe, but if I had to buy it new over the new price of the HK, then I'd still be listening to the HK. With that said, each amp has to be judged on it's own merit. As I said in my earlier post, I compared my HK with McIntosh and other amps, not saying the the Mac's where bad amp, just not made for maggies. I would have to agree with you though, crap in, crap out...
I'll add to what gumby had to say about the Signature 1.5, as you can now find used HK Citation 5.1 and 7.1's out there at very attractive prices ($500 and up). I have two 7.1's and a 5.1, they are an excellent match for all the Maggies I've run with them (MGIIIa, MG1c and MMG's), and were built by Madrigal here in the good old USA.
FWIW, I am using a B&K receiver as a preamp since like many of us I have to combine HT functions with my music system. It has a 'direct' mode that frees up the signal path for stereo listening, and an 'ultra' mode to allow subwoofer control......which is wonderful since I can control the sub volume with the remote ;^JBest of luck,
Brian
'Into the Red'
Better yet, try:http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/search.mpl?searchtext=mg+IIIA&b=OR&topic=&topics_only=N&author=&date1=&date2=&slowmessage=&sort=score&sortOrder=DESC&forum=systems
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