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Model: | LFT-VIIIA |
Category: | Speakers |
Suggested Retail Price: | $1500/pair w/o stands |
Description: | Hybrid planar magnetic/dynamic speaker |
Manufacturer URL: | Eminent Technology |
Model Picture: | View |
Review by Stale (A) on April 03, 2007 at 18:17:10 IP Address: 151.154.70.122 | Add Your Review for the LFT-VIIIA |
THIS IS FOLLOW-UP TO MY PRIOR REVIEWForeword:
Since I reviewed theses speakers year and half ago, I tried to get as much as I can however, with monetary (and WAF) limits.
Most of the time, I played around understandably using my MF CDPre and amp. Also tried passive bi-amping with two MFs, than Plinius 8100, Carry Rocket 88R, Carry Rocker 88R on pannels+MF, Cary V12R (courtesy of the friends and Van L Speaker Works in Chicago, I am not associated with blah, blah...). For cables see below
Frequency response and SPL
At advice of some of the inmates I bought RS SPL meter (in combination with Stereophile test CDs) to speed up search for a best location of the speakers. Well, it was very informative to have it but I did not find it too useful. Although it may help in finding smoothest bass response, smooth response is not all that is. Still it was useful to locate proximity of the (personal) best location, and it gives you piece of mind that you are not doing something way off. As much as RS reading anything meaningful at the upper octaves, dream on, it was way to much direction sensitive.
After quite a bit of fiddling around, best results were obtained when ET panels are about 3ft from the front wall, about 8ft apart 10 ft from my listening position, vertical and significantly rotated toward listening position. (Actually I believe that being even 4-5 ft into the room is better, but due to the room size 15'x16' and possible listening position it is not possible, don't mention WAF)
There were complaints that these speakers can't play loud. Everyone has its definition loud, so I measured in room average/peak SPL values in db of about 93/103 with single MF, similar with Cary V12R, or about 96/106 with various bi-amp options. (For me these were ridiculously high volumes for permanent listening). Most of the listening I do is approx. 65 to 75 db average, 85 to 95 db peak. What is important that speakers did it without strain (cant say that about the amps).
Speaker Cables, Bi-wiring, etc.
Again, I don’t want to make this cable review, so will not detail each the cable/cable configuration, I will present overall trend. First, cables make quite a quite a bit of difference, some were great some sucked big time.
For single wire configuration, attaching wire to bass terminals, jumper to panels, give slightly better bass control, but some slight harshness and loss of air in the midrange-treble. Differences are very light, albeit the worst one was using supplied jumper wires, with CAT 5e close second. Of others tried, there was some difference between them but not much. In any case, after a while I always preferred cable connection to the panels, jumper to the bass, for single wire.
For double bi-wire configuration, it was always slightly better than single wire, some of the harshness is gone and bass control improved, however, only as long as the same type of cable was used for both panels and bass. As soon as different cables were used, no matter what improvement it may bring to the upper or lower register it would, well, somehow mess up the overall balance.
I want talk about interconnects since they are more related to the Pre/Power interface, but for the record, some ICs worked nice with certain speaker cables, and no so good with others, so experimentation is necessity.
Amplification
As much as bi-amping is concerned, the only amps I can get in pair were MF A3.2CR, unfortunately. As much as difference between the single amp/bi-wire and bi-amp configuration is concerned, there is slightly easier representation and less ‘glare’ at the higher listening levels. At lower levels, I could not really say is there a difference or not (I am leaning toward slightly yes), Also you get higher SPL but to me it is mutt point since I do not listen at those levels anyway (or should I say any more.) Also, I could not obtain megawatt amplifiers so most of what I say is in respect to moderately powered amps.
Why, unfortunately? Well similar to the above, as soon as two different amps were used it would mess up transition region between panel and bass, everything is there but just is not right (yes, I matched levels and inverted polarity where required). I know that some will disagree, but for me even-ness/wholeness of the sound is more important than slight increase in the maximum SPL, or somewhat better control of the bass, or...
So what is different than my previous review and comments?
I mentioned slightly pfff-y treble and some dryness in the midbass. After a few cable changes and I believe extended break-in this was reduced to fairly low level. Actually depending on the cables and amps , and top end may go from too hot to recessed, (subjectively). Problem was that with most of the SS, if cable was quick and spacious, I needed to tone down tweeter to mostly middle setting, but than there was slight brightness in the sound, and as I noted before dryness in midbass-upper bass. After little bit of position adjustment midbass improved but some dryness was still there with SS amps. If cables were on the fuller, slower side, you would loose brightness, but some PRAT too and space. However, this was not too prominent and spaciousness, quickness and overall natural presentation were rarely significantly compromised, just, depending on the associated equipment, 'shape' and 'color' changed.
And than one day after trying SS amps, it hit me that this speaker has almost constant fairly high impedance on the panels, originally I heard it with CJ gear, lets try tubes on the panels. I borrowed Cary Rocket 88R and hooked it up in a single mode just to get a feeling before I start setting up for bi-amp configuration. Midbass dryness gone, top end crystal clean, all detail is there (maybe even more), but had more body, stage depth increased, ease of presentation and that ‘being here’ feeling in spades, slightly lacking in PRAT (or how I like to refer to it boogie factor) and bass definition. It was quite a jump.
I should kick myself in the behind (if I figure how to do it) for not going tubes much sooner. I still can not believe that 30 WPC in triode can do this with 84db speakers. No, it could not play as loud as MF or Plinius, or have kick ass bass, but I don't need that any way. Everything else is just way better.
After that experience I tried to get hold of other tube amps to try. I tried ARC VS-55, Sixpacs and finally Rogue Stereo 90. Well, six months later it is still here and it is not going anywhere at least in foreseeable future. I use it w/ Tungsol 12AX7, Sylvania 6SN7, SED 6550. I will try to give amp comparison at latter date and as amp reviews.
After lot of blah, blah, how did all of the above affect sound ET-s?
That pfff-y treble is gone, as well as any harshness that was present with certain amps/cables is gone. Dryness in bass is gone. (With 90s, there is also boogie factor that was slightly missing from Rocket 88R-s) .
Overall spaciousness snappiness etc, did not change, it did not change speaker main positive traits.
There is trade-off while using single tube amp of the limited power. Bass is somewhat slower, and does not have impact or grip that it had when biamp-ed with SS on bass. It is not question of quantity but feel. If you need impact, you need large power SS amp, period. (Even than, do not expect JBL, Cervin Vega etc, type of bass).
Now part that amazed me the most. After using tube amps for months I plugged in SS back as a reference point. SS sounds, well, gray. Sorry , I can not describe it in a better way. It is really hard to explain, there is no lack in detail with any of those, but just it is like having sunny day vs. day with slight overcast or haze.
Conclusion
Still the same, one of the best speakers for the money, provided that you can afford decent associated equipment and have space. Yes, somewhat narrower sweet spot in respect to conventional speakers, but not less than the other planar types, not for parties, hard rock and heavy metal, but pleasure for acoustical, vocal, jazz, classical, etc. music.
(Since there is not space below, number of cables were tried, from cheapo giveaways/MAS Blue?/AQ Diamondback/Chord Chameleon 2/Kimber Hero/PS eXtreme Signature/MIT Shotgun S3ic, Nordost Blue Heavens, Transparent Music Link, to Harmonic Technology TruthLink (personal stock and friends loans), and from HD14/CAT5e(braided)/PNF Symphony/AQ Granite /AQ Bedrock/Nordost Blue Heavens/Transparent MusicWave single to MIT Shotgun S3s.)
Product Weakness: | See review |
Product Strengths: | See review |
Associated Equipment for this Review: | |
Amplifier: | see review |
Preamplifier (or None if Integrated): | see review |
Sources (CDP/Turntable): | VPI 19 MKIII, Rega RB250 Moded... |
Speakers: | LFT-VIIIA |
Cables/Interconnects: | See above |
Music Used (Genre/Selections): | jazz, classical, international... |
Room Size (LxWxH): | 15 x 16 x 9 |
Room Comments/Treatments: | Little, unfortunately |
Time Period/Length of Audition: | 1 year 9 months |
Type of Audition/Review: | Product Owner |
Follow Ups:
I own the ETs.The most dramatic event of my ownership was hearing a Pure DSD recorded SACD on the ETs. The sound must be experienced.
All CD playback pales in comparison. I think a lot of the amp and cable switching is an attempt to fix defects in CD sound.
Pure DSD/SACD recording that is out of this world.
And which ones ?
I can not remember that CDpre24 can read SACD.Would like to try some players, but have to admit that limited number of SACD is big let down for investing money in to a player.
But I can't vouch for their sound. I have a Sony 555ES.
Great review!! and yes I know, my will be coming soon!I've tried a modded Threshold and modded Forte amps with good results, but you certainly are right.
Tubes have a Magic with the ETs. Right now I'm using a Space Tech Labs VP 105 at 50 WPC in triode. I'm very happy with tube power, but like you said the bass can be a little slower, but it does have a nicer richer tone to it in the bass.
The jury is still out on a passivie biamp with S/S on the bottom, but I did find a little more depth with the tube on just the panels with a hint smoother and easier flowing. I just got anonther pair of Alpha Core M2 speaker cables that I have to reterimate, so I will see if having both cables the same on bass and panel helps.
What setting are your panels on now?
I do have a gain control on the Tube amp ( the bass amp would be nicer). You said you inverted polarity where required. I was not aware that I should invert polarity. Were you just experimenting or should I be inverting the panel with biamp?
I've had my tube amp for almost 2 months and have settled on a quad of EL 34 Winged "C" + a quad of 6550 Winded "C". Playing around with driver + gain tubes with a pair of ECC35 Mullard(6SL7)on the way and with RCA 6SN7 VT231 in the other stage right now.
I am in a 12x14 room on the long wall with the ETs 4 ft out from the front wall, with speakers 7 ft from listening position. No WAF!
My sound stage is huge!! It is the whole front wall, from floor to celling, from side wall to side wall (recording depended) with lairs of depth and busting down the wall. I am utterly amazed at what I have pulled off in my room with min. room treatment (need to work here). I didn't think I would get it this good in a small room.
I can make these big speakers disappear in my room!!!
I should add that I feel a little bad as I have not done a review yet. I only work parttime as I have some disabilities, but havn't been able to find the energy to do anything but sit in my listening chair. But I will be taking a break from the job for a bit. So I hope to get a reveiw done soon.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.Great review Thanks!
"What setting are your panels on now?"As I mentioned before, depends on the associated equipment and cables. Currently, with Cardas cables, they are on high, with most of the other cables on mid, never needed to use low (well, if the rest sounded so bright that you need to set it low, than doing so would not solve basic problem, IMHO)
"I was not aware that I should invert polarity."
Some amps invert polarity. If for biamping you use both that invert (or both do not) than everything is fine. Hoever if one does invert and the other doed not, than you will lose some bass. It s noticable as thinner mostly upper bass and transition from pannel to woofer will sound little bit strange. If you do not know which amp inverts, try reversing wires on EITHER pannels OR bass (on both speakers) and one with more aparent midbass upper bass is correct configuration.
"...quad of EL 34 Winged "C" + a quad of 6550 Winded "C". ..."
Interesting, you can mix and match sucessfuly EL34 and 6550 on the same channel??? Can you explain little bit more? I realy like SED 6550C."...ECC35 Mullard(6SL7)on the way and with RCA 6SN7 VT231..."
I tried Mylard/Webcor 12AX7 but to be honest it was too mellow for my taste. Would like to get some RCA 6SN7, Sylvanias are large step above stock chinese, and noticably better than EH (IMHO).
" No WAF! "That explains location :-)
"I can make these big speakers disappear in my room!!!"
ET-s do not draw attention to themselves, and I consider one of their real assets that inspite their size after few minutes of listening you forget about them. Most of the speakers that draw attention to themselves I find unnatural.
"I should add that I feel a little bad as I have not done a review yet. "
If you noticed, I would not do these reviews that I was not temporarely forced to stay home. I wish that now I can squeze some time for the review of the rest of the system. I have quite bit of notes, still it takes time to write somethin meaningfull.
Speakers were done first since a) I was really happy with the value, b) they are not commonly found to demo,and c) they are not reviewed too often.
I have played around with the seting a bit and also at present have it on mid setting."Some amps invert polarity." I am aware of this and all of mine are the same and wired for the proper phase. I had thought you ment the panels were out of phase.
""...quad of EL 34 Winged "C" + a quad of 6550 Winded "C". ..."
Interesting, you can mix and match sucessfuly EL34 and 6550 on the same channel??? Can you explain little bit more? I realy like SED 6550C. "
That's what I love about Space Tech gear, you can do a lot of tube rolling with thier preamp + amps.
I can run 4 6550 in each ch. or all EL34 or KT88, 90, or 2 EL34 and 2 6550 or KT88 in each ch. with automatic self-bias. I can even pull a row of tubes out.
In the front stage I can run 2 6SN7 per ch. or 2 6SL7 per ch. or one of each with no ill effects just poss.with Rectifers I have run all the better 5U4G, 83, 80 5Z3, 274B, and I few I have forgotten. With the bigger Power supply in Space Tech gear I can run pretty much any Rectifers up to 5V, right now I am running a Rectifer with 5 Volts and 6 amps.
A few I know with Space Tech gear and have rolled alot of tubes,and find the Mullards to work best, just depending on which is more suited to your system (ECC32, ECC35) ECC32 is way to much $$$.
"I can make these big speakers disappear in my room!!!"
"ET-s do not draw attention to themselves"What I meant was the sound comes from the middle of the room, from behind the speaker, above the speaker, beside the speaker, not much from the speaker. I didn't think I could pull off this in a small room!
Your so right, these speakers are an amazeing value.
Now that I will have some time off shortly, maybe I get around to doing an active bi-amp as well. I do now have the proper frequency modules for my Marchand XM44 as instructed by Bruce at ET.So looking forward to some time off, but it will put a damper on my next upgrade for now.
"I can run 4 6550 in each ch...."
I see it now 2+2 of each per channel."...6SL7...
I could use them too, with less gain. Don't know if I want that.
"What I meant was the sound comes from..."
Very nice review. I think you have hit a lot of good points that will help many prospective buyers.Just one point I would like to add; (as you alluded to) amplification will most definitely have great impact on how the ETs perform, probably more so than most...
Again, nice work Stan!
Yes, they can change dramatically as amps are switched.
I was really surprised that top end changed qualitatively so much with tube amplification, as well as that I will consider SS amps to sound "gray".
I just did not expect either.Btw, previous LONG review was brought to you as courtesy of allergic shock, i.e. recovering after it. This one is courtesy of sinus surgery.
Damn, I write reviews only when I am sick, that has to change.
Nice review and congratulation on your findings of the tube + ET combo. My first listening session of the ET which got me hooked was in fact with Single Ended equipment. I then tried a number of high powered SS with ET, including Primare, Krell and NAD, all of which sounded cloudy and gray, exactly as you described. The best amp I have heard with the ET was the ASL Hurricane. Has all the sweetness of tube while able to produce sufficient impact on the low spectrum. You really owe yourself a listen to these ASLs.
... easy solution, find new ones =) (i'm joking dear, in case you see this post)...
Although I would like to, they will have similar "problem" as SixPacs, to much heat which my wife does not appreciate and low WAF. Add to that costly tube replacement especially since I like to play around with it.
Stan & Potter,Had the same WAF problem when I ran my ET8s with Wolcott tube amps(e.g., heat, tubes, cost)which is why I sold them; but went to the Classe CAM-350s and kept all that I loved in the sound presentation I was use to and even better defined bass as an extra bonus. The wife and I are one again....
But seriously, there are ss amps that will work for you out there, you just might have to "pay up" for them! :(
I am happy that my wife did not kick me out together with ET-s when she found "us" in the house.Coming home and showing her bill for $7000 amp would probably be the drop that overfilled the glass :-)
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