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In Reply to: Lucky Bastard posted by Peter Gunn on April 2, 2007 at 20:52:45:
some of us have listening rooms that double as living rooms. Four subwoofers is a bit of a compromise furnishings-wise.
Follow Ups:
I was actually surprised at how easy it was to get them out of sight. Four small things can be easier to hide than one big thing.
In some rooms the four small subs might not be practical in the idealized scattered configuration, but I think they'd still probably have an acoustic advantage over one or two subs placed more conventionally.For instance, two small subs could go behind the dipole panels (there's some under-utilized real estate there), and maybe the two others alongside the panels up against the side walls (there's probably some available real estate there too).
An equivalent internal volume single subwoofer would be a cube roughly 21 inches on a side, which may or may not be easier to place - depends on the specific room situation.
the front wall, correct? Are you planning on offering them in different finishes?
You can face the drivers whichever way you want. Frankly the reason for facing the drivers away from the listening position is mostly cosmetic. If it's your ManRoom, face 'em however you want.Standard finish is oak, like the set auditioned by Peter Gunn and Mickey Bob. My woodworker can probably do anything that's available in pre-veneered MDF, and will stick it to me (and me to you) accordingly. You don't wanna know what a sheet of Birdseye Maple veneered MDF costs - ouch! The Swarm's enclosures are made from 3/4" veneered MDF, with all panels either braced or double-thicked. They're pretty solid.
I agree that is their biggest drawback, they dominate the room, even dedicated ones. The one at 9 o'clock got in the way of my record cabinet and the one at 3 was in front of my cd cabinet. (as in IN the way) I didn't like that fact but I am willing to live with it for what they add.Hopefully one day you can audition them however, as they are something.
Hey PG,You could get rid of the CD rack if you moved to a PC based system and if you will forgive the heresey, the vinyl too :).
It could even sound better!
Then what's next, the orgasmatron? :^ )First, I have never downloaded a song and I never will.
Second, the art, the package, the thing itself means as much to me as the music. I do not consider them inseperable.
On top of all that, I HATE my f*cking computer. Why in gods name would I invite this thing into another apsect of my life? I don't even own a cell phone, and I don't want one of them either.
Maybe you should try a stint on my team instead? :^ )
I guess that is what I get for trying to help fit the swarm into your room :)Then what's next, the orgasmatron? :^ )
I think that has been done:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Living/story?id=235788&page=1
First, I have never downloaded a song and I never will.
I am not talking about downloading anything, but archiving your existing cds and albums. THey are yours and you have the right. My music computer is not even hooked up to the internet. However, these may be your famous last words.
Second, the art, the package, the thing itself means as much to me as the music. I do not consider them inseperable.
DOne right, you can get all of that. There are many programs that download cover art already, and I know of one that allows you to add band pictures, liner notes, lyrics that don't show up in the liner notes, etc.
On top of all that, I HATE my f*cking computer. Why in gods name would I invite this thing into another apsect of my life? I don't even own a cell phone, and I don't want one of them either.
I totally agree on the cell phone thing. I have one, but that is only for work, and if I didn't need it for my work, I wouldn't own one.
I get the "I hate computers" thing too. But remember that this pc does 2 things: it organizes your music and plays it. Only a few programs are running, so it is very stable and can be easy to use. A lot of pc problems IMHO are conflicting programs, too many programs, and people who really shouldn't be allowed to use a computer. THis is fixed with a dedicated audio computer.
But, the writing is on the wall. Off the hard drive sounds better than off the drive, and more and more high end companies are moving this way. Plus, even audiophiles need an easier life, and more and more audiophiles will be expecting the convenience. THe cd sucks when you no longer have to use it. When you need to replace the Lector of yours, all that there will be is a purpose built PC that can store all those CDs.
Here is just one example of what the future holds:
http://www.zerooneaudio.com/product_Ti48.htm
Maybe you should try a stint on my team instead? :^ )
I am!! I have similiar speakers and similar amps, just a more modern front end. If you lived with a PC based system, you would see what I am talking about and why it is the future.
"I guess that is what I get for trying to help fit the swarm into your room :)"What's the point of opulence if it doesn't get in the way? It's like taking a treasure bath. :^ )
Archiving? Are you nuts? Do you think I have the time to sit at this computer (that I hate) and download ALL of my discs? In case you didn't know I have a music review website, I am DROWNING in discs. The thought of that is simply impossible.
"writing on the wall" Gee, that sounds prophetic... didn't someone say that about LP's 20 years ago? :^ ) (and tube gear 40 years ago?) It's bullshit, don't believe it. We have weapons of amazing ability today, and guys still hunt with bows and percussion caps. All you're talking about is convenience sucking the life out of.....life.
I say no thanks, and I will till I die. I've seen the future. It blows. What is it we're supposed to do when life becomes so "done" for us there is nothing for us to do? Now I don't care if anyone else does it, I simply can't imagine why they would want to. I've heard full digital front ends and I've hated them. I also believe my Lector is 99% as good as vinyl. Why would I replace it? If it breaks, I'll have it fixed. I will never do what you do, ever. I'd sooner stop completely.
By the way, if (or is that when) your hard drive crashes with all that on it, then what do you do? :^ )
To each his own, cest la vie! :^ )
Ah, treasure!Alright PG, don't say crazy Dawnrazor didn't try to save you from yourself.
BUt what if it could sound better than vinyl? The potential is there and some day someone will do it.
Hard drives are pretty cheap so I have a couple that have the same files, and I do still have the original cds. And better sounding black cd versions too.
To each his own, cest la vie! :^ )
Agreed You can lead a horse to water... :)
Save me from myself? I'm trying to save your soul. :^ )Your one line I think highlighted the entire problem with audio.
"But what if it could sound better..."
Why is better the goal, and how do we know when we've reached it? I have heard the same instrument in multiple venues and it sounds better and worse each time. Which one was the better one? Which was the real one? Which the right one?
IMHO, this is supposed to be about enjoyment , not chasing the "best" sound. Chasing the "best" sound is what puts audiophiles on the endless loop of misery. The people on here with Behringer amps are happy, and I know those things sound like crap. I was happy for years with an Adcom GFA-555 and that thing was a hunk of crap too.
There is simply no joy for me in your way, so lets just settle it. I concede the orgasmatron will give me a climax like I never had, and could have no other way.
But I'll still take a real woman with all her inherent flaws and foibles over that any day. Maybe one day you'll see it my way :^ )
But I'll still take a real woman with all her inherent flaws and foibles over that any day. Maybe one day you'll see it my way :^ )Now you are talking. Chicks rock! Got any numbers I can call??
You talk about enjoyment. Well, I for one have MORE enjoyment with a PC based system. I actually listen to more and varied music.
NO way I am going to get into vinyl. My system would suck then. All the money into a turntable, tone arm, cartridges that wear out (why is a hard drive crashing any different if you have a back up?), and a phono pre amp, and a pre amp, cables, etc.
I'll spend the dough on better amps and better speakers, subs etc.
ANyhow, I knew I was wading into turbulent waters and that you wouldn't drink.
I am a curmudgeon, I cannot deny that. But I am an honest one. If what you do gives you hapiness then as I said I have no problem with it. I simply draw the line at your notion that it's not only for everyone, but we'll all be forced to do it in the very near future , like it or not.I don't like it. That's police state mentality. If I want to use a Tandberg receiver and a reel to reel till my dying day I will be able to, and nobody can stop me. Nor should they wish to.
I don't understand why everyone thinks vinyl is such a problem. Obviously if you're using a computer you don't have a preamp but that's your own fault for using such a wacky thing to begin with :^ ), and if you clean your records right and from the start and take care of things nothing wears out. My cartridge is 20 years old and I couldn't guess the hours on it. Sounds as good as ever (thank you Last) and my records have no surface noise at all, despite who knows how many spins. (thank you Last and Nitty Gritty)
Nothing would please me more than getting your ass here, sitting you down and letting you bathe in my system for a day and then ask you how you feel about things. :^ )
I can't help you with chicks however, married for 17 years. I don't have any numbers anymore :^ )
PG,My grandparents live in your state, so one day, I might just appear in your listening room.
I might just enjoy that, but you are going to have to get that ass of your up to change the records.....
I've been wishing for another cup for the flyers for 35 years. Still nothing.And I would enjoy your visit.
And I've enjoyed the exchange we had here too. Thanks :^ )
Me too PG on all accounts.I went through a hockey phase and loved the Flyers. That was nearly 20 years ago.
I loved Hextal and crew but if memory serves edmonton always won.
So yeah lets get them another cup.
See, except for your boyish good looks and the anti computer deal, we are similiar on quite a few things.
Yes, yes, edmonton always won.....Ahhh, my boyish good looks. At least it still helps me with the ladies
(I wonder how many people caught the Woody Allen “Sleeper” reference ;-)It just seemed to fit here though. I *do* use a computer as an audio source at my repair shop, but I also have an AM/FM tuner and a CD player (a 5-disc changer of all things) in that system. It’s a matter of queuing up hours of air molecule decoration that can whistle while I work. Every bit of that music was encoded from CDs or records which I own.
I'm not exactly into downloaded music (and am quite against it if that means STOLEN), but I understand it and I remember the first time I heard the idea. Frank Zappa proposed music on-demand delivered via satellite 20 years ago, but he also was concerned with the gropable components - album art, liner notes, lyrics, etc. What stood in his way was money - satellites are damned expensive (and he couldn’t get anyone interested in funding the idea)!
I agree with you completely about the package. I have mixed feelings about computers. They used to be my source of income – back in the days of the mini-mainframes. Mr. Gates and the media forced the collapse of an entire industry courtesy of Y2K hysteria (& hype). Ahhh, but that’s water under the bridge – these damnable little PCs sure can do some fantastic things!
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Now back to the Swarm and listening rooms (and your logo), unless I misunderstood some of the papers I’ve read, the major benefit of a subwoofer array is that one can walk around in the soundstage without experiencing the varying effects of room nodes (the bass response remains stable everywhere in the room (almost)). For a single listening position, a pair of subs is quite sufficient (right?). BTW, the white paper I read also stated that the room nodes could not be completely eliminated with even a theoretical 1,500 subs!
Your room is VERY nice. I envy those of you out there with dedicated listening rooms. Many of us must make do with multi-purpose rooms, as well as multi-purpose systems (for instance - in “my” living room and must also perform HT duties). Many of us are married and want to stay that way! I’ll take your comment about credit cards being “for” attaining equipment beyond my means as tongue in cheek (read the previous sentence again).
Your logo looks very slick to me. I do have one quibble with it though. The bee is holding 4 (2-way) *speakers*, not subs. Otherwise, I really like it.
Every modern time saving device has had the same cause and effect.They give us convenience, and take away everything else.
I simply say no thanks. Anyway, I still run windows 98, and don't even have a cd burner on mine.
As for the technical stuff you'd have to ask Duke but I am pretty sure he told me 2 simply don't work as well, even just in the sweet spot. I think Duke had an argument with someone else the other week about this. I think it's theory arguing against fact. All I can say is I heard the fact, and it works. :^ )
Believe it or not I lived here 12 years before it even dawned on me to convert the attic, and that whole time I had no room. (and for a good while no stereo) Take a look and see what you have, you never know what might occur to you. (and wouldn't your wife like a room like mine?) I did charge some of my gear, and the costs of building the room. I am hoping to have it all paid by this summer, so as long as you can pay it off in a reasonable time it's a valid choice.
LOL, you never saw the swarm, they look like a 2 way because they have a driver and a large ported tube. Being held by a giant demented bee that far away, they would look just like that :^ )
Really time to upgrade.
And by now most of the inherent problems were fixed with patches. Why would I want to go buy the new damn thing (what is it, Vista?) which I hear is giving everyone nightmares because it wasn't made backload compatible with a lot of older software people use and rely on? Every time microsoft tries to push the envelope, the envelope breaks.Again, NO THANKS :^ )
Vista is not the one to go with...you are totally right it IS a nightmare.XP is very stable and pretty much just works. I have had no problems with it.
98 is a dog in that there are devices that are common now that weren't around then and are common place now, like USB devices.
ALso, from what I understand of it, the audio drivers and architecture is different on 98 versus XP.
...I expect 10 years out of an operating system too. :^ )When I am forced to get a new desktop, I'll get XP then, thanks.
98 is only a dog if you are trying to use things like an Ipod etc... but I don't own one of them either (and don't wish to) so it's really not a problem for me. The programs I use most are IE 6, my poco email client and paint shop pro, and all of them work fine.
Actually, I'm so sick of "brand" computers and all the crap they stick in there when I do get a new one I may just buy a case and build it myself, and get a copy of XP for my very own. It just scares me because I don't trust computers, and when this one acts up I know how to go into DOS and fix it. XP doesn't even come with DOS, does it? It's going to be tough getting me to change :^ )
It's like presidents. Do you know why so many get re-elected, even if they're screwing you? Familiarity and fear of the unknown. Maybe he's screwing me, but I'm familiar with the process and I know how bad I'm going to take it. I have NO idea what the other guy will do.... and that odd chance it might be worse is enough to tip the decision. Same thing goes for bad relationships.
:^ )
Pg,Yeah, I would NEVER by a BRANDED computer. All that crap they force on you, and "free" antivirus that bugs the crap out of you until you order a subscription...
I just get a bare bones and put in the memory and drives, and XP and what programs I need.
I do believe that Dos is still part of windows, even XP.
WAZOO is right about security of 98.
Man, how could someone be so smart about presidents and relationships but just not get the computer thing.
Ah well reality is stranger than fiction.
Your approach (of sticking with 98) may be wiser than you realize. The truth is: the software evolves in lockstep with the hardware. In other words, 98 may run much better on your computer than XP. Every new OS dramatically increases resource consumption.I agree with Dawnrazor about XP - *very* stable (the MOST stable OS ever released by Microsoft in my opinion). There is one other issue to consider and that's security - which isn't a small concern for *any* computer connected to the Internet. Windows98 isn't being supported any more - no more patches doesn't mean no more breaches, just no more fixes.
on the convenience issue. It's nice at my shop, but I just can't see myself doing that at home. I do like my CD burner though - 4 tracks off this CD, 2 off that one, etc. I use those "compiled" CDs in my car and leave my originals at home. I also take them to work. It's as much about protecting my originals from harm as it is convenience.It's a tedious process, but I've also had good success digitizing material from records. After I have the music on my PC, I can work on cleaning it up in some cases and fixing tonal balance in others. It's not all bad, but it (the computer) is NOT replacing "the real thing".
Eventually, I plan to add on to our house (there is already a door frame in one of the exterior walls where the expansion was supposed to have gone by now). There are just so many things clawing at my wallet... I don't think my wife is too interested in having a room like yours, but she'd be quite happy if I had such a room (as long as it was in the attic). It's worth a serious thought.
I actually thought about your logo that way - the little circles could be ports. But, this would require the little dots in the center of those circles to be eliminated (ports don't have dust caps). I was sincere about liking the logo - very slick indeed!
I'm not that antiquated. I have a cd burner to make copies for the car, but it's a stand alone harmon kardon 2 tray model. An "audio component" in other words, although I'd never use it for playback.As for the house, like I said you never know. What I did seems obvious now but for many years it never dawned on me. Who knows what possibilities exist? Think about every space you have, a light bulb may just go on.
As for the logo, I'm glad you like it but I didn't make the bee. I liften him off the net after a long image search. And boy are you getting picayune about those ports! (it's a small image after all!) In truth however, they DO look like that. If you saw one of these subs from 20 feet away you'd think it was a 2 way first. :^ )
If you are archiving vinyl, you really have to have a professional soundcard that is capable of 24/192 resolution to have any chance of doing it justice.
I know I could do better, but I have an Audigy2 ZS in my notebook - it supports 24/96 for recording (full 24/192 playback). That's what I used. My interest was in making recordings that I could play in my car and at work - mission accomplished.
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