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Re: Subs for Planars, the brand doesn't matter....

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In Reply to: Subs for Planars, the brand doesn't matter.... posted by erik_squires@hotmail.com on April 1, 2007 at 08:55:12:

Very well thought out and written. Integrating a sub is the most difficlut part of assembling a home theater. Many people use WAY too high a cut off frquency for the sub and set the volume level of the sub also way too high. I listen for what a sub does to recording venue ambience, rather than what it does to bass instrumenets. Currently, my sub is limited to frequencies below 40 hz and is set 8 db below the mains and surrounds in level. It took six months of tinkering before I was satisfied.

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Re: "the" proper subwoofer level setting - wazoo 14:20:01 04/01/07 (11)
To my thinking, this is a chimera - a subwoofer is simply not a set it and forget it device. In a perfect world this would be so, but in the real world there is a tremendous variation in the low frequency levels in one�s music collection, unless that collection is extremely limited. This requires varying degrees of correction.
If I listened to �Selling England by the Pound� by Genesis (when they *were* Genesis) and then played something from Neil Schon or Joe Satriani without adjusting the level of my (small (10�), sealed) sub, my listening pleasure to one or the other (or both) would be compromised � period. This is why one of my planned projects is to add remote controllability (with level display) to my REL sub � also want to add a second sub when I redo my MMG frames (don�t have the floor space with current arrangement).
This brings up a question. Would I be better off trying to locate a good used Q200, or could I do better selling mine and building a pair of my own subs? In the first case, they would be beneath, and not in any physical contact with the MMGs and I could dampen the three sides which face the sub. In the second case, the subs and MMGs would share frames. My assumption is that the first arrangement is the better.

"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ ♬
- I change the volume on every album... - Kiefer74.1 03:11:25 04/03/07 (4)
  For the different styles of music and the different types of recordings it must be done to have the bass just right. I'd love to be able to control it from my couch, but I'm used to getting up to change albums and changing the sub volume at the same time...as I usually know where the volume should be for most albums.
  Jon
  shameful plug www.jdlkaudiomusic.com
  - Re: At least a few people agree with me! - wazoo 05:33:14 04/03/07 (3)
    That is precisely what I do. Like you, I have a pretty good idea where my sub should be set for the material I'm about to play, but it would still be convenient if I didn't have to reach around the left MMG to get to the sub's level pot. It would also be nice not having to count clicks when I rotate it up or down (I can't really see the dial without getting a flashlight).
    My initial point was that the need to make such adjustments is inherent in the recordings, as confirmed with a little headphone listening. Positioning the sub and setting its crossover point correctly is imperative, but this doesn't accomplish a feat of magic. If the bass is way down in the mix (which seems to be a problem with a great deal of older material), I have to increase the gain on my sub to bring it out. Conversely, if I'm listening to material with "proper" bass, then I must dial my sub down (or that'll be all I hear - yuck).
    I simply can't see how there could possibly be an acceptable compromise - "the" proper gain setting. This isn't a problem with the room; it's a problem with the source material (and, as I mentioned, this can be confirmed with headphones which cannot be interacting with my room).
    
    "Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ ♬
    - I'm one of the agree-ers (see below). All I know is that on - powermatic 09:45:55 04/05/07 (0)
      some albums I can increase the level and still not 'hear' the sub, but on other albums the same level announces loud and clear that there's a subwoofer in the room. (BTW, I'd recommend you try adding a remote-works for me).
      Still, like you, I agree with erik that sub integration is important. The only change after dialing in x/over level, phase, and room integration is volume level, and I believe that's due to the engineering of the album itself.
      IMHO, etc.
    - One last thing that I feel is very important... - Kiefer74.1 13:16:31 04/03/07 (1)
      Is connecting your sub using the higher input stage, meaning the speaker level inputs (if you have them) vs the line level inputs. Connecting speaker wires from your amp(s) to the speaker input of your sub, still using the subs x-over (unless you have a separate one). Changing from line level inputs from my preamp to the speaker inputs from my amps made a huge difference in the fidelity of the sound of the sub. Huge difference, I cannot emphasize this enough! Though your experience may vary, I think it is unlikely, unless your using your sub w/ a home theater system.
      Jon
      shameless plug for my website: www.jdlkaudiomusic.com
      - Re: high level inputs - wazoo 20:06:35 04/03/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: One last thing that I feel is very important... posted by Kiefer74.1 on April 3, 2007 at 13:16:31:
        
        Yep, I use a (homemade) Nuetrik cable to connect my REL Q200 to my amp (paralleling my MMGs). The other subwoofer (the one for HT - the big one) is connected to the LFE out of my preamp - it operates only when listening to movies. I want another REL, but the one I have isn't made any more and is rather rare on the used market.
        
        "Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ ♬
- Bad subwoofer response -) Poor level setting - erik_squires@hotmail.com 05:30:46 04/02/07 (2)
  They are two different things though.
  What tonal balance you want for each recording may need to be adjusted per album, but if your bass response curve is squirrelly, your integration with your speakers will ALWAYS be poor.
  The peaks and valleys in subs can be really narrow, and force you to make choices you wouldn't otherwise. For instance, I've had a room with very large 20Hz and 50Hz peaks, 16x the output at those frequencies than in between, and above. Proper level setting without adjustment left the subwoofer volume level turned down almost completely.
  After taming these two peaks, the subwoofer was able to come up substantially, creating a much smoother and fuller bass without sounding overwhelming.
  So, in my mind, poor sub integration will usually lead to being forced into poor choices for subwoofer levels.
  Also, once this is fixed, you will probably find you are less sensitive to the specific album than you were before. What is most aggravating isn't the overall bass level so much as a specific album or track hitting the same notes your room is resonating at. Tame those, and you will be reaching for the tone controls less often.
  Regards,
  
  Erik
  - Re: Okay, but what about when I'm wearing headphones? - wazoo 10:28:27 04/02/07 (1)
    There certainly can't be any issue with room interactions in that scenario, but I hear precisely the same variations in bass content. I cannot argue with your point about proper integration because it is an excellent one. However, this does not change the fact that most discs from the '70s require substantially more supplementation than newer releases - for me, there is no escaping the need to adjust my subwoofer level in accordance with the material to which I'm listening. It would be nice if this weren't true, but I don't think ANYTHING can be done about it.
    
    "Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ ♬
    - Re: Okay, but what about when I'm wearing headphones? - erik_squires@hotmail.com 10:51:17 04/02/07 (0)
      I'm not saying you shouldn't use/want tone controls, but rather that the better integrated the sub, the less sensitive you will be tot he subwoofer's level, and the less you'll be wishing your sub had a remote. :)
      Regards,
      Erik
- Re".....not a set it and forget it device". - powermatic 14:49:22 04/01/07 (2)
  Agree totally. It seems almost every album requires a touch of bass volume adjustment.
  I researched buying subs with a built-in remote, or adding a diy remote control, but ended up buying a used Creek OBH-10 for RC duties. It's kind of a cheesy little product that I wouldn't put into my front end, but it doesn't seem to do any damage to the low frequencies. And what a difference it makes being able to adjust the sub from your listening seat.
  - Re: Re".....not a set it and forget it device". - Dawnrazor 15:08:36 04/01/07 (1)
    And what a difference it makes being able to adjust the sub from your listening seat.
    YES. This is one of the great side effects of going with a computer based system. Bass mids and high all can be adjusted from the listening seat.
    The only challenge I have is that the PC only puts out a balanced signal, and only the most expensive subs accept balanced signals witout some adaptor.
    - Re: Re".....not a set it and forget it device". - madmaggie 10:43:29 04/02/07 (0)
      In addition to the level and cut-off frequency - I found that proper phase matching is essential to blending-in the sub. In my set up the sub sits in a corner along the same wall as the 1.6s but about 10ft away from the speakers. The continuous phase control allowed me to literally position (move) the bass within the stage.
      Also, IMO a low Qtc (0.5-0.6) sealed sub works best for the Maggies. I use a DIY sono-tube sub. It is driven by a PE plate sub-amp with a continuous phase adjustment.

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