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Waiting on MMG delivery and have a few questions...

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Hey guys, I have a couple of questions here. First of all, I have been a lurker here for a long time, and I have always wanted to try out some Maggies. I finally found a deal on a set of modified MMG�s from a forum member here, and I am trying to plan everything out as much as possible so I can be ready when they arrive.
First, I will be driving them with a Karman Kardon AVR-340. I do have a powerful pro amp waiting in the wings (Behringer EP-2500) if I decide this isn�t enough power, so I should be set in that department.
Also, as far as low end, I have an IB manifold with four 18�s installed in the front middle, so 80hz and below is taken care of quite nicely. The sound quality from this EQ�d IB is unbelievable, so I�m not too concerned with anything down low from the Maggies.
So, that brings me to room placement and acoustics. I�m really completely set on the configuration that you see in my drawing. This is a �to scale� drawing of my living room/theater with the one foot squares representing my parquet wood floor (with a 6X9 rug between the speakers and seating).
The problem I foresee is the corner that my right speaker will be located in. The left speaker is more out in the open with a wall to the inside and an entry way on the outside of the speaker. I�ve got some home made acoustic panels on the right side of my right speaker right now, but I�m thinking I will need some diffusion behind the Maggies. Maybe a Ficus or palm tree as recommended by so many on here. It would have to be something thin as I can�t really come out into the room much further, being a living room.
Also, I my fixed screen being in the middle, I can�t really add much in the way of room treatments except underneath, as you can see.
One last thing, does anybody run these as a phantom center channel? This is really a 50/50 music/theater system, and I just wonder how bad it will be for everybody not sitting in the middle if I decide to keep these and run them this way.
Any suggestions before I get these bad boys and hook them up?
Thanks! David

Follow Ups:

Re: Waiting on MMG delivery and have a few questions... - Rod H. 07:36:48 03/20/07 (2)
It's been mentioned that you will need lots of power for the MMGs. This is very true if you are running them full range. It sounds like you may be high passing them at 80hz however...or are you running the MMGs full range and using the sub to fill in the lows? IMO, if you are high passing the MMGs at 80 hz (which happens to be what I'm doing with mine) they won't need as much power to perform well
As far as phantom center, my wife and I watch lots of films using the MMGs with no center and voice intelligibility is fine in various seating positions. We sit relatively farther away from the speakers though, and my MMGs are closer together as we are just using a 42" screen, so your situation may be quite different.
Rod
- Re: Waiting on MMG delivery and have a few questions... - gymwear5@hotmail.com 11:44:30 03/20/07 (0)
  If you are using them at 80Hz crossover you have to figure the respons will go down to 60Hz, because of the 4-5dB bump the MMG's have at 60Hz. So you have to use a little contouring of the sub to get it right. I now use the Behringer ultra drive and but a notch filter where the bump is and the use a 12dB/oct HP. works great... I've also setup my MMG's for biamp - all crossover components are gone. I also use the ultradrive's limiter (audiophiles around the world are gasping for breath) to protect the basspanels when my son gets a little crazy cranking thing up. I was very happy with NAD 50Watts and my HK520 rcvr's 65Watts driving the MMG's in biamp. You'll be fine with the big Behringer.
  And just FYI before the biamp I pushed the mmgs fairly hard with my MC352 (350 watts)with the big and fairly accurate watt meters and took the audiophile quality amp with some of my real dynamic demo music (Flim and the BB's) up to peaks indicating over 400 Watts before the MMG's started to sound stressed. Less dynamic stuff was indicating 200-250 peaks when the speaks hit my grundge limit
- Re: Waiting on MMG delivery and have a few questions... - osuhog 07:52:07 03/20/07 (0)
  Hey Rod, yep, I will definitely be crossing them over with a high pass at 80hz. Honestly, I'm guessing that the phantom center won't be very good for the outside seating in this set up. Luckily I always sit in the center. :)
  Seriously though, I'm hoping I can integrate a center channel in if I have to. I suppose I should get a Maggie center to match. Is anybody running a "box" center speaker with Maggie mains?
  Thanks again!
Re: Waiting on MMG delivery and have a few questions... - osuhog 07:36:34 03/20/07 (1)
Okay, here is my updated drawing after moving stuff around last night. It�s hard to see in my pic, but here�s what I did.
Pulled the bookshelf in to act as a side wall for the left speaker
Pulled the loveseat in, and brought in an identical loveseat from another room to absorb at each side mirror point.

Acoustic foam on the middle of the front wall, under the screen (I actually did that a few months back)
I have a big tall armoir that I will be moving into the area behind the right speaker tonight. I couldn�t do it by myself and my wife was already in bed last night. :) This armoir and the bookshelf will make the entire listening area very close to symmetrical now.
I also have some home made acoustic absorbing panels that will be going in behind each speaker and to the outside (in the corners).
My next step is to shop around for some diffusion for the area behind each speaker and to the inside, right up next to my screen. Ficus???
When I get the speakers, I think I will setup them up, listen, and tweak from this point.
I know the speakers will be right up next to the loveseats, but the seats are pretty low to the ground, as you can see, and I don�t think they will cover much, if any of the Maggie panel, which will be raised up on upright stands about 9-10 inches. As you can see, the woofers in my current speakers are completely above the arms of the seats.
What do you think? Right direction?
Also, as far as amps, I have owned Anthem, Chiro, Carver, Adcom, and now this Behringer. I can honestly say that they all sound about the same to me, on the speakers that I�ve had (Paradigm Studio, and now DIY). I�m hoping that will be the case with the Maggies too, as I�m definitely a �bang for the buck� kind of guy.
Case in point, you might notice my projector screen. It�s a sheet of drywall, painted with Kilz and masked with flat black. Is it as good as a Stewart? No. But it cost me $8.65 and a few hours of time. :)
- Re: Waiting on MMG delivery and have a few questions... - RickeyM 08:36:31 03/20/07 (0)
  "Also, as far as amps, I have owned Anthem, Chiro, Carver, Adcom, and now this Behringer. I can honestly say that they all sound about the same to me, on the speakers that I�ve had (Paradigm Studio, and now DIY). I�m hoping that will be the case with the Maggies too, as I�m definitely a �bang for the buck� kind of guy."
  It's good that you're a �bang for the buck� kind of guy".
  Not to discount your DIY speaker skills in any way, but Maggies are revealing enough to show differences in all kinds of things you didn't expect before.
  Please be seated when you fire your modded MMG's up for the first time. That way your jaw only falls to your lap and not the floor, hehe.
Re: Waiting on MMG delivery and have a few questions... - Larry I 05:40:20 03/20/07 (0)
Ideally, you would want more room behind the speaker, but, in your setup you are juggling a lot of different considerations, including the ability of the side viewer to see the video screen. All things considered, it looks like a pretty good setup.
I have had panel speakers in the past in an asymetrical setup (open on the left, just like your setup); for me, it was less of a problem than I was led to expect.
You are almost listening in a nearfield environment which will lessen the impact of the room on the sound; that too, is probably a good thing.
As for treatment, I would try some absorption for the area behind and to the right of the right speaker. The short distance to the back walls mean that the brain will blend this sound with the direct sound rather than perceive it as a reflection or separate sound (you would need more than five feet to the back wall for the reflection to be distinct from the direct sound). Some absorption would help attenuate the highs and mids so that the direct signal will be relatively stronger, as it is on the left side.
Re: Waiting on MMG delivery and have a few questions... - Ozzy 01:48:13 03/20/07 (5)
> First, I will be driving them with a Karman Kardon AVR-340. I do have a powerful pro amp waiting in the wings (Behringer EP-2500) if I decide this isn�t enough power, so I should be set in that department. <
I don't think either of those are good options. If you like the speakers, give them better power.
Oz
- Re: Waiting on MMG delivery and have a few questions... - RickeyM 07:05:07 03/20/07 (3)
  Congrats on your modded MMG purchase. I did some looking at your receiver and it does not appear to be rated for 4-ohm speaker loads. Your EP-2500 should handle it with ease though. It's a good thing the H/k has preouts. At 10 times the H/K's power tho', the EP2500 will definately be more dynamic.
  Before stressing-out on whether the EP-2500 will sound "good enough", give it a try and see. If you like the sound but the fan noise is a problem, there are easy solutions for that.
  If you decide to stay with the EP2500, don't discount the effect of quality plugs on the power cord to improve an amp's sound.
  - Re: Waiting on MMG delivery and have a few questions... - osuhog 08:06:28 03/20/07 (0)
    Oh yeah, I almost forgot. The fan noise of the 2500 is a non-issue. All of my equipment is in the next room over, behind my screen. My equipment stack is actually about 4' behind my right speaker, right on the other side of the wall and in that corner. No noise to deal with and nothing lighting up the room! :)
    That room is kind of a computer/excersise/play/junk room. :)
  - Re: Waiting on MMG delivery and have a few questions... - osuhog 07:46:34 03/20/07 (1)
    Thanks for the reply Ricky. Yeah, I figure I will most likely use the amp, and not the receiver. The 2500 sounds great on my current DIY speakers, so I'm almost certain it will work for me with the Maggies.
    - Excellent! - RickeyM 08:25:25 03/20/07 (0)
      The amp in another room is even better than a low noise fan! I do recommend a better power cord/plugs for your EP2500. The stock PC is definately "lowest-bidder" stuff. The Behringer amps are transparent enough and Maggies (even MMG's) are revealing enough to reveal improvements in this area.
      Definately keep us posted on how it sounds when you get things running.
      P.S. Behind your speakers..DIFFUSION is your friend. Start planning that now ;^) .
- Agree. First off H-K does NOT rate the 340 at 4 Ohms. - HenryH 05:21:42 03/20/07 (0)
  Any amp used to drive ANY Maggie must be stable into a 4-Ohm load. The only H-K receivers I know of rated for 4-Ohm loads are the 3380 and 3480 2-channel receivers. I used a 3480 with my MMGs and the 150 wpc at 4 Ohms handled them well.
  
  Henry
  Mushrooms are the opiate of the mooses
Re: Waiting on MMG delivery and have a few questions... - Chris 18:46:52 03/19/07 (0)
I have had my MMGs in a similar situation. I have one 4ft-tall/1ft-diameter foam column about a foot and 1 half / 2feet behind, on the outside of each speaker. Power wise, you need at least 2x200watts in 8ohms to get those MMGs alive, so with the behringer, you should be more than fine. I would definetely get some absorbtion because your front wall seems reflective.
Re: Waiting on MMG delivery and have a few questions... - berndt 18:19:18 03/19/07 (0)
I have a very similiar room.
I mask the suckout of the uncornered speaker by sitting a bit more near field than optimum for soundstaging, but they still sound great(PG SMGas).
I have a bunch of cubicle panels that are solid fiberglass that I was throwing away at work when it dawned on me...
I shift them around some to dampen and defuse.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Re: Waiting on MMG delivery and have a few questions... - gymwear5@hotmail.com 14:35:50 03/19/07 (1)
Well, start with a good listen. Your room should give out some very nice panal sound. Your asymetrical space behand each driver might need some treatment. I'd play a series of recordings in mono - switching the balace control left or right- to see if you get some unagreeable tonal variations. You will get tonal variations - so try to focus on whether it sounds believable - b/c that what the maggie experience is all about.
The left side alcove will behave like a big diffuser -I would think I's work on placing a panel diffuser (spin the bookcase 90 so it extends a bit into the alcove opening) then move the couch to the end of the alcove for a little reading nook...
This stuff is the fun stuff in audio... enjoy.
- Re: Waiting on MMG delivery and have a few questions... - osuhog 15:05:53 03/19/07 (0)
  Thanks for the reply!
  I updated my drawing a little if you want to refresh it and see the changes. The alcove there is actually an entryway, so I can't turn it exactly like you are saying. But, I could get some skinny bookshelves and line some books up for some diffusion on each side. That should be doable. Probably wouldn't hurt, even if I went back to my other speakers. Also, there is a hallway leading to the rest of the house, as you can see now.
  I will definitely try get some mono recording ready, great idea!
  I agree, this is the fun stuff, my WAF is about as good as it gets! She thinks I'm crazy, but always enjoys the end result, so I pretty much have free reign! :)
Re: Waiting on MMG delivery and have a few questions... - osuhog 14:05:23 03/19/07 (0)
Also, here is an actual pic of the inside of my room, although it's a few months old. The couch in the bottom right corner is no longer there, my screen is a little bigger and moved a bit to the left now, my speakers are now pulled out away from the wall and toed in a little, and I have some acoustic foam attached underneath the screen and in the middle. I thought this might give you guys a better idea of what I'm working with.
Thanks again! David

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