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In Reply to: Re: Dutch treats posted by gentlegiantfan on March 5, 2007 at 15:18:35:
They probably regularly ate foods fried in lard as well. Cholesterol isn't even a component of plaque (it's lipoprotein-A bound by lysine) and it is deposited in response to micro-fissures in the arterial walls (it's a life saving measure that overshoots the mark). That's why it tends to be limited to the proximal arteries - the ones subjected to the greatest amount of expansion and contraction. I would imagine they never consumed or used (in cooking) partially hydrogenated vegetable fats - just butter and lard (thus reducing the likelihood of alimentary carcinomas). There's definitely something to be said for such a lifestyle.My grandfather was Irish and died fairly young (thanks to drinking heavily and the things he did while inebriated), but my grandmother also lived to a ripe old age of 92 (and was self-sufficient until her final few months).
Follow Ups:
Hey Doctor Wazoo,doesn't exercise factor into things too? I bet they were getting a ton more exercise than most of us do, and we get the partially hydrogenated to boot.
In keeping with the audio theme, is it important to brace things better vertically or horizontally? Both?
If I were a doctor, I'd be basquing in the glory of a pair of 20.1s!Your comment about exercise is spot-on, however. There are many, many factors that lead to longevity (with good health) - attitude certainly being one.
You've directed your query about bracing to the wrong person - I'm *learning* from this forum. I will say one thing though. I don't believe one should strive to completely deaden one's speakers - a little sympathetic vibration is probably beneficial. I don't think anyone would argue that the stock architecture is ideal though.
You are dead on about the stock architecture.Although, it is ideal for pumping out affordable if not ideal speakers.
I figured someone expert would chime in on my question. We'll see.
I am planning a stand of my own, but it will not be like any other I have seen. That it is not to say it is better or anything like that, just very different in that it will be a wallmount, and not a floor stand.
I was thinking that I should add some metal braces that were vertical, and then I thought maybe I should do some horizontal too. BUt it might not be necessary. But, I could do them with out and add to see if it was worth it.
By wall mount you mean on a wing from the side? Or do you plan to have them on the rear wall and just held out away from it somehow? Is it room constraints which are causing you to consider this path?My only advice there is don't trust the MDF to hold it up with screws. Be very careful it is supported well.
If by vertical bracing you mean struts like people with floor stands use, I can't see how you can use them without a base. You need a triangle for strength. In that scenario you can only go to the wall, and then you can only come back on the bottom, which is essentially a base. I really don't think you can get the benefits of a floor standers struts by hanging them, and in fact I really fear hanging will worsen the over all vibrational problems because there is no way to truly "hold" anything that's essentially in the air.
Mass, like anything, is helpful in the right measure and detrimental when you add too much. Generally if it looks wrong it is wrong and it will sound wrong.
I would only go this route if there really was no means at all of having them on the floor, and then with the understanding you will not reach the same level of performance speakers on the floor will achieve.
Good luck.
Hey Peter,I apologize for not being too clear.
I will be mounting them on the SIDE walls (if that is not too far apart, I have to check)about 6ft into the room.
The speakers will be facing each other, and I'll sit about 3ft back from that plane. Kind of like big headphones. It does sound crazy, and if I had never tried this setup, i would easily dismiss such a post as the work of a nut. But witht he tweeters closest to the listener, this is the best setup I have ever had. It is weird, but the sound stage is really huge, and between the speakers and the normal front wall, so it stages like a normal setup. Except that I am telling everyone where the speakers are, I could easily win money of a blindfolded listener by asking where the speakers are. Not sure if the stock ones work in this config.
I was planning on making something like a picture frame around the driver itself...no mdf, and attaching the new frame at the top and bottom using those triangle shelving brackets that some people use for floor stands.
So the top and bottom will be braced with the brackets. I could run a flat steel beam down the whole length, but I wasn't too sure that was necessary. I was thining that I just needed the "frame" to be ont he left and right vertical sides of the driver, but am wondering if I should do the horizontal as well. Any thoughts.
The other thing is that I live in earthquake country, so having them on the walls wouldn't be a bad idea.
Just don't use metal fence posts, OK? :^ )I really wish I could beam you into my room for an afternoon. That might just solve your whole problem :^ )
Anyway, for whatever reason, your room, your gear, your dimensia or a combination of all 3 you like maggie headphones.
My new frame is essentially a complex picture frame, although the pieces are permanently attached (at least it is to be hoped) and picture frames are not. If you can make yourself something like that, yes, it should work.
My only problem is don't they need to be out at least 2 feet to sound right? Supporting them that far from the wall.... I'm drawing a blank right now. Obviously you'll have to attach to studs, but how you minimize the structure while maintaining strength I don't know. In your case you may almost have to make something out of steel.
Is being on the wall really safer in a quake? I suppose, as long as the wall doesn't come down. I don't know how you people deal with that.
Good luck with it, and if you get stuck feel free to email me.
Hey PG,QUit building those really nice stands, and start working on the beaming technology!!
Yeah it does seem like dementia, but I am telling you it sounds better than a normal setup. THe trick is to be very nearfield say 3ft from the plane of the speakers, and of course they need to be vertical.
ANyhow, it will be a while before I get around to this, but I think I have it figured out.
The only issue I can forsee is that the studs need to line up on both walls, or I am sunk. However, the way I plan to do it, I can easily make them floor standing.
ALso, they can be a ft off the side walls, but the sound is affected more from the distance to the front wall...just like normal. So, as long as they are say 4-5ft or more from the front wall, it will meet the "hey don't they have to be 2ft from the wall" requirement.
It really is the coolest effect, and from looking at it, you would never guess it would work, but it really does.
See, I had a 1.6 owner come and listen and he said tha the modded MMgs sounded better than his 1.6s and he was jealous. If there was an issue with teh setup, he woudl have said things like "how do they sound in a normal setup?" or "have you thought about setting them normally?", etc. But he didn't.
"I carn't doo it Captian. You know I don't like beaming maggies..."I'm not going to second guess you. If you're happy it works for me.
My advice is to get 2 large sheets of finished plywood (your choice on species), finish the edges with trim molding if you like and attach it to your wall studs. Make it large enough that you can attach the maggie bracket to it. With it secured to the studs it won't come loose, and you can then screw the stand in anywhere on it without worrying about lining up a stud.
I have a similar incident to this that is quite peculiar. When I was originally building my attic room I was of course very interested (re-concerned as all hell) what the acoustics would be like, given the A frame ceiling. I had removed the insulation and flying squirrels from between the risers and laid the floor, and as it almost looked like a space I had my friend bring his maggies over and we set them up.
Sitting on a folding chair across the room, we were both treated to the most bizarre sound we ever heard. When you listen to speakers, even if they are imaging right and the sound is between them and not localized on the speaker itself, it still sounds like it's over there. This sounded nothing like that. It was as if we were wearing what we both called a "speaker helmet". The sound seemed to be coming from just a few inches from our head from every direction including behind us EXCEPT for in front. It wrapped around the tops and back of our heads, but nothing from the front. It was just like wearing a football helmet with hundreds of tiny speakers all over the sides, top and back playing at you.
He said it was the weirdest and coolest thing he ever heard, but he wouldn't want to live with it. I was mortified that the room would sound awful. Apparently it was just the bare wood roof and reflective surfaces everywhere, the A frame and lack of any walls that did it, because once finished finished it was fine.
Good luck with your project. If you can fit a triangle into your design it will make it a lot more rigid.
Hey PG,YOu really are a bright one. I never would have thought of that ply-wood trick....thank you so much!!!
It doesn't quite sound like what you are describing. It images like a normal nearfield setup- in terms of where the center image is. The difference is that it is not as precise as a normal setup. Which may seem like a bad thing, but to my ear it is a lot more like live music, which is never really as precise as stereos make it. It was like I added a tube amp, and got all the benefits, and none of the down-sides.
Also, the front wall (where you have your equipment and treatment) had windows that took up the maot of the wall. When those windows were opened, the system sounded the best. I don't know if it was because of the breeze that would occasionally blow or the fact that the reflected sound would dissapear through there, but man was it really realistic.
Trust me, I have had a normal setup for more than I have ahd the abnormal one, but I find it very hard to go back. I also think that this only works in nearfield...at least on the quasi-ribbons.
THere are some ribbon owners that swear by this set-up and do not do it nearfield either.
I will be setting up in the new house soon, and who knows, maybe this will not work as well and I'll end up with a more conventional setup.
Thanks again for the tip.
I tried to resist the temptation to respond, but look where that got me. Oh well, hopefully my subject line will help you get more answers to your post than mine.I understand about the economics of speaker building and Magnepan does have what appears to be a design tuned to efficiency of production - being so thin makes them easier to store and ship too. As many have noted, however, that provides an opportunity for brave folks like are found in this forum to modify - and modify we do!
In a sense your stands WILL be better than anyone else's because they will be designed for your specific requirements. I am a little curious about the wall mount part of the equation though. How can they be wall mounted yet kept far enough away from the wall to sound good? I found that they opened up as I moved them out into the room - too bad I don't have the room to place them further than 3 feet from the rear wall! That's why I don't have a larger pair (well, that and my constraints in the other dimension).
Bracing is definitely an issue in the vertical plane due to the length of the panel and the thinness of the MDF - it can't help but flex. That movement is bad in several ways - from wasted energy to phase incoherence. At merely a foot wide I wouldn't imagine this to be a problem in the horizontal plane, but what do I know?
I think the benefit of mass comes from coupling (don't want to start a semantics war here) them to the floor which won't apply in your case (I think - haven't seen what you're doing). In my case, I have heavy (1/4" thick) steel stands with spike feet that bite into the subfloor beneath my carpet. The additional mass of my frames and XO box just helps drive them into the subfloor all the better. I think this improves, among other things, their bass response. It doesn't perform a feat of magic - I still need to use a subwoofer with them.
It actually is a sideways set up, and even though they will be close to the sidewalls, the speaker preforms as if it is the same distance fromthe FRONT wall on a normal setup. SOo, if I hang them on the wall 6ft out into the room, even though they may be a ft off the sidewall, they sound like they are 6ft out in the room in a normal setup.
Actually, I remember reading another post about that configuration a month or so ago. You've piqued my curiosity. I just have to try that this weekend, but I'm going to have to make some longer speaker cables to do so. My Litz cables are only 8' long (probably made them too short now that I think about it - you know what they say about hindsight). I think my son's Monster Cable wires are about 12' - might be long enough if I drag my amp out of the cabinet...Oh, what a sick crowd we are!
Just remember that the tweeters should be closest to you, and you have to listen nearfield. Say about 2-4 ft away.I don't think it works on the non ribbon models unless it is nearfield.
ALso, if you turn the speakers so the backs are facing each other, you are effectively changing the absolute phase of your system. So you need to compensate with the speaker leads, or with a pre amp or source that can change the phase.
And, when I did it, I just turned the speakers so the backs were facing each other...because I had short cables too.
But when I moved, I re did the speakers with some binding posts so the posts were on the front of the speaker. THis room never sounded as good. I don't know yet if it was the room or listening to the front of the speakers. In some cases, magnepan makes you listen through the perforations, and if I ever get things set up in the new place, I'll be able to figure out if that is better than the front of the speaker.
THe link below shows the posts, but it also shows the distance from the side wall, which is about 1ft. In the old room, I had some bookcases between the speaker and the wall...maybe that helped the sound too...probably did.
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