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I'm too dumb to do it myself.
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Anyone nearby who might be able to give me a hand????
I live in Amity OR, about 90 minutes SW of Portland. Which side of the metro area are you on?
Lake Oswego! Do you know how to upgrade the crossover? I could sure use some help!
I live in Bend, and I'd be more than happy to build you a couple of wooden-boxed xo's for the cost of the parts. My brother lives in Portland, so I get over there fairly regularly, so 'twould be easy to hook 'em up.
Thank You!!! I'll be in touch!
One way or another we'll get you fixed up!
Thanks Rod! I sent you an e-mail!
Do the research to see which capacitors and inductors are favored, and spend the money to buy a proper soldering iron for the type of inductor: the Alpha Core foil inductors need at least a 40-watt iron to solder wires to the foil properly. 80-watt irons would be better. Most hobbyist irons are 25-watts or smaller, and will fail to make a proper joint.Keep in mind that wood is a poor dielectric for audio, and that vibration is the enemy of high resolution.
Making electric violins is easy. Mostly woodworking since the electronics are basically a self contained and don't require soldering or finding parts. The problem I have with most of the online discussions and instructions for upgrading the crossovers is that they are written by people who speak the electronics language. It's just over my head...I've already taken the socks off one of my 1.6s just to see what's inside but that was easy.
If you found it difficult, then you should have someone with circuit knowledge work through the electrical portions of the project with you if you undertake to DIY.While understanding the reasons for choices of parts values and how they influence speaker behavior requires electrical engineering knowledge, getting the parts according to the lists provided, and connecting them in the correct order, is fairly straight-forward. Making good solder joints is a skill that anyone with steady hands and the correct tools can acquire with a little patience and practice. It is much more difficult to build a wooden box with controlled resonances. You will notice that the crossover projects typically use acrylic boxes: acrylic is less resonant than almost any wood.
"You will notice that the crossover projects typically use acrylic boxes..." Yes, and if you read most articles which say why, it's because the person did not have the ability to make it out of anything else. Acrylic is readily available and requires nothing but glue and can be made quickly. That's why it gets used. I have never read a review where the person said he made boxes out of various materials and compared them and the acrylic was best. I also doubt it would be.
"acrylic is less resonant than almost any wood." And this is good why? Magnepans more than any speaker can be said to be musical instruments themselves. You cannot stop the resonance of a musical instrument, nor would you want to. It's that resonance that makes it so wonderful. That's why they make musical instruments out of wood, not metal, and not acrylic either. I think it pays bigger dividends trying to reach a harmony with the resonances rather than trying to eliminate something you have no hope of eliminating. It's like tuning a room, you want to make the resonances work, not eliminate them. Going down that road almost always ends in sterility of sound.
Stereos reach their magic ideal when all the components reach a zen like "one-ness", when the gear, cables, speakers and room act as a whole. The closer they come to this, the greater they become. If we treat one aspect like some cancer than needs to be removed, we'll wind up heading in the wrong direction and we'll never reach Xanadu.
...where the person said he made boxes out of various materials and compared them and the acrylic was best. I also doubt it would be."On what basis? Have you done the experiment?
Resonances in audio systems introduce tonal colorations and suppress resolution of details in the source material. Resonances can be manipulated to make the colorations euphonic, but they will still suppress details. Users with poor or defective upstream components may find they prefer this suppression to the ugly truth.
"Magnepans more than any speaker can be said to be musical instruments themselves."
If you want to see speakers that are musical instruments in themselves, look at the Bosendorfer, Lumen White, and Sonus Faber lines.
We have such completely different audio goals that there is not much more to discuss. My goal is to reveal as much of the music in the recording as the format allows, not to decorate recordings with pretty resonances. Magnepans can be tweaked to reveal music, but not by adding resonances.
And you're not supplying one either, yet you're pronouncing the acrylic better. That was my point.I am quite well aware of our "differences" which is exactly why I replied. So that other new people who read this thread but who don't know can see they actually do have a choice in the matter. And where did I advocate adding resonances? I actually said the opposite and that the goal should be to prevent the inter-action of the ones that do exist. Would you tune a Stradivarius by filling it with repti sand? Well, maybe you would..... (and make it out of plexiglass as well)
I will continue to enjoy my "colorations", thank you, and you enjoy your "glare".
you are taking measures to damp them that you are not disclosing. You are advocating them by offering them for sale.Many people like Magnepans because they are free of enclosure box resonance colorations. Some of these resonances are from the size and shape of the box, and some are from the wooden or other materials used. The more refined box speaker designs contain elaborate treatments to minimize the materials- and shape-related colorations. It seems wrong-headed to me to introduce similar resonances to Maggies in an effort to correct other deficiencies (panel rocking and crossover parts selection). This is just trading one set of problems for another.
The musical instrument analogy for speakers is so inapt that it is not even wrong. You can use your maggies for surf boards about as well as for musical instruments.
Your Repti-Sand crossover experience told you that you have serious upstream problems. Correcting them would make the resonance issues from your wooden constructions more obvious.
"Your Repti-Sand crossover experience told you that you have serious upstream problems" - Yes, I need to ditch my Hovland HP-100, Lector player and Pass X-250 for real gear. Thanks for pointing this out, then all my "upstream" problems can get solved. (funny that I nor anyone who's heard my system heard these "upstream" problems though)What should the other 80% of people who also told me repti sand doesn't work for shit do? Maybe all of us should just build an exact copy of your room and buy the gear you use? Funny, but everyone I know who tries your "tricks" say they don't work and ruin their sound. But then again, we were all flawed to begin with, sorry I forgot.
Yes, I recall you saying in the past none of us knows what real music sounds like either, that's we've been "brainwashed" to like "colorations", so we're probably beyond help anyway. We're to stupid to pour sand after all, or so you told us.
Sorry I'm always wrong and you're always right. I suppose a harp isn't an instrument either as it too is just a frame with vibrating strings. You can shoot arrows with it also I suppose since you can't surf on it.
Thanks for your continual enlightenment.
I have to say, that resonance can be a good thing. And as a fancier of stringed instruments, when a high quality mandolin or guitar is properly tuned, the top just "lights up" with sound when it's right on at 440 hz. I've found the same thing in my listening room. I have all my equipment on 2 1/2 " maple racks and blocks of tone wood quality, and it makes a difference, as everyone is vibrating along in synch, amps, tubes, and all. And when that happens, the room "lights up" with an energy you can feel in your chair and in your body. And it's very cool! But I can also understand that out of synch vibration or resonance can cloud the sound.
I'm not taking sides here, just making some observations as a half-baked musician and half-baked audiophile...the truth is where you find it!
Merry Christmas and happy holidays to all : )
Jerry
That was just my point. That:1 - Resonances do exist
2 - They cannot be eliminated entirely, and even if they could it's not the best recourse
3 - Wood based ones are more natural sounding
4 - Yet you need to make even those work in harmony, or at the very least not fight each other.I think you validated what I was saying, or in other words I agree with you. What's more it's that natural timbre or "color" that is so hard to capture with our stereos. Thanks for making your observation, and Merry Christmas to you too!
And any resonance issues can easily be taken care of with an appropriate lining in a wood box.
I actually found my best results came by tackling this problem by addressing how the box sits on the base rather than trying to insulate the box insides. Again, by doing the inside of the box you're attempting to control it which I've found is not possible in practical terms.What worked far better for me was attacking the point where they make contact instead, and with the right product it is easier to make them not notice each other, and once the point of agitation is removed the problem is also.
And yeah, the wood looks a lot cooler too :^ )
your rounding 3rd base at this point (IMO); if you've got the socks up. To avoid any soldering I would personally go to the front on the unit(s), undo the spades connecting the tabs, drill a small hole through each tab, and run your leads through the holes. Twist them, wrap small strips of electrical tape to secure them and then run the four leads out the back (color code them or label them first!). The rest is done according to the tweaks section. This would leave the inside components intact if you'd ever decide to go back to the stock version.
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What you are saying sounds great - but I don't understand it. Is what your describing illustrated anywhere in drawings or pictures?
at the top you'll see the area where the four pustab post reside (now removed from REBoylin's impressive setup) located in front of each panel. This is the area I'm refering to; it's were the 'rubber meets the road' and where the current is supplied to the drivers.
But notice how he actually removed the cheap, tin pustab post and inserted his own copper leads (incredible IMO).ALWAYS better to solder (I recommend Cardas solder) but if you simply can't, then this is what I'd do instead(if you don't feel comfortable with doing the above or soldering):
drill small holes in the original tabs themselves (once the pushtabs are removed; I'd use a headless finishing nail or small bit).
wrap your new leads through the holes and around the tabs and secure each lead with electrical tape.This leaves the original leads (wires with pushtabs) intact giving you the option to return it to it's original factory specs later (if you choose too).
A few words of advice:
-label (or color code) each lead; it'll save you a lot of headaches later. These are NOT wired 'mirror imaged' as in conventional speakers, rather: (-)(+)(+)(-) and (+)(-)(-)(+)
-use caution removing the pushtabs from their post (if it does not come off easily -back-off); break one and you'll cry like a baby
-ANY modification voids the warranty
-most XO advice recommends removing the fuse although you can run one inline (I don't)
The rest of the procedure is again, outlined in tweaks.Good luck and God save us all..
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Wow! Thanks! I think I'm starting to understand!
you wouldn't even have to drill holes if you could find similar sized spades and then crimp them to your leads...
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I plan on offering this as part of my upgrade services, only I had a vendor problem and then a few other disasters this past fall which stopped me from going public this year. People keep asking me about it and that's why it hasn't happened yet. Fingers are crossed for late january, early february for it to be "official", but I can do the work now.I can make you something that would look about like these:
Of course the size and shape might vary depending on the contents. I can also install your binding posts if you supply them, so they'll come back all ready to be wired up.
2 boxes like this in oak and unstained is $75. That includes installing your posts if you supply them. We should also discuss how you plan to mount of place the boxes. If you have any questions please feel free to ask.
As a by the way, I will be modding my first pair of 1.6's in january per my stand and CO mods. If and when that works out I will be offering the service for that model as well. If interested you may wish to wait a month. Finished they look something like this. (the design has been slightly modified since this picture was taken, but you get the idea)
If interested I can put you in contact with people I've done the work for for their feedback. Thanks
Hey Peter,They look pretty good, whats on the inside that would make these better than the stock ones. Also, what about updating the wiring on the panel. Would there be a benefit to upgrading the xo's and not the panel. AND, my last questions is, how much for MGIIIa's?
gumby
"whats on the inside that would make these better than the stock ones?"If the person is buying them for the boxes alone ($75) then of course nothing. They need to put their own parts in. If I build the crossover, what goes in is my secret. I can direct you to people who will sing it's praises however.
"Also, what about updating the wiring on the panel."
I do that when I do a complete stand rebuild. Of course I need to have the speakers however.
"Would there be a benefit to upgrading the xo's and not the panel?"
Well no, I think it prudent to change everything over to the same stuff. Whatever wire the CO gets wired with the panel should also. One thing audio signals don't like is going thru different wires. They start acting like filters."AND, my last questions is, how much for MGIIIa's?"
IMHO maggie IIIa's are the most un-needed speaker ever made. If you heard my modded smga's the 3's would be out in the trash. I just sold a finished pair of smga's to someone and he said they killed his 1.6's. Then his friend brought his Gallo References over and that was even more of a wipe out. What's more, since I need to have the speaker to do the mods and shipping 3's is such a burden, I don't plan on modding them. It's my opinion the smaller models sound better and are easier to deal with, both shipping and room placement. I would make CO boxes for 3's however.
You said "If you heard my modded smga's the 3's would be out in the trash".If you heard MY modded IIIAs, you'd be jealous!! :-)))
Regards,
It's all good. I had a pair of 2.5r's that sounded really good to me, then I listened to the 3a's, sounded even better. I then went to listen to several speakers, ML, 3.6. etc. While I concidered that my 3a's sounded almost as good that the 3.6's, they did sound much better than the ML's. So it's a good thing that we don't live closer, because you'd have to prove that to me. So in the mean time, I'll just have to take your word that you think SMGA's could ever sound as good as the 3a's.
I once owned the MG12, the 1.6 and the 3.6s. I also had the fortunate opportunity to hear Gunn's modded SMGAs. I won't march into a flame war as to which sounds better since "better" depends so much on individual subjective tastes. I will say, however, that if (or is that "when") I return to Maggies, out of all the Maggies listed my first choice would be Gunn's modded SMGs. They are that good! The modded SMGA was the most musical, most engaging, most toe tapping of the Maggies I've heard (the 20.1s excluded). My 3.6s just did not have the integration and the reach out and grab you involvement that Gunn's SMGs have. Gunn's handiwork on these speakers is truly enchanting. I wish I had time to say more, but it 'tis a busy season. Anyone is free to email me privately if you want more information on my listening experience of Peter Gunn's work. I have no affiliation or connection to Mr. Gunn's business other than our association through the Asylum and his gracious invitation which allowed me to hear his wonderful system.
At the risk of asking to much personal info, what state are you guys in?
I live in eastern PA, Hartwerger lives in Maryland.And I hope you are close enough for an audition. I'll convert you faster than the Pope :^ )
There is an over riding belief with a lot of things (especially where men are concerned) that bigger somehow must translate into better. In this case it absolutely does not. Different certainly, and therefore taste is the final arbiter, but not better. However it has been my experience, as well as everyone so far who has heard my mod, that this is the sound they want from a loudspeaker. You are welcome to come hear them if you are close enough for the trip. Just email me directly to discuss it.
Well Mr Gunn, I may just have to take you up on that. I'm currently in the NYc area, not too far away.
I'm only 90 miles away then, almost a straight shot down 78.By all means come. Maybe we can schedule a date with hartwerger as well and have a party. I'm sure he'd want to be there.
Now is not good due to the holidays, but once january comes just let me know. Are you a registered inmate? If not, do so and you can email me and we can discuss this off line.
someone should build these things as a side business ;)
...I think he might be able to help you.
Oz
I, too, have been wondering who around the country - if anyone - is known for doing this for other people. I don't plan on having my MG 12s done for a few years but when the time comes I certainly won't be doing it myself :p. (I live in Massachusetts.)
unfortunately that's the easy part.undoing the fabric, disconnecting/reconnecting while inside the panels is where the most work is done.
Best bet is to post what part of the Country you live in so someone might be willing to help you.
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have to strip the cloth, you definitely, at the least, have to pull the xo covers and snip/reconnect the hookup wires.(Saying this, it's still best to run new wire all the way to the panel terminations)
It would be nice if Magnapan just sold the panels wired straight to a nice set of binding post.
Then anybody could just build you a pair of xovers and it would just be plug and play.
Ditto. The crossovers themselves are extremely simple. For the most difficult part you would need to ship your speakers to someone. Best to find a local experienced enthusiast...many of which would be willing to give help for free, or for a sixpack or bottle of wine.
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