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In Reply to: Re: All of it. MaggieLover's post below summarizes the issues. posted by maxzimum on December 9, 2006 at 22:05:54:
Best of luck. Setup can be time consuming and frustrating, but in the end very rewarding. Moving the speakers even an inch or two at a time can have a large impact on the presentation.It's possible you've never experienced the breathtaking results that can be achived with the 1.6s and the 3.6's. In the best case, on good recordings there is a strong sense of live musicians playing in a three dimensional space in front of you, with the soundstage extending past the speakers to the side walls and beyond and well beyond the wall behind the speakers. The speakers and walls just disappear. Very few of us have that perfect room, but the goal is to get as close as possible.
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Measured my room again. It's 15' wide and 16' long. The wall behind the speakers is 12's wide with a 3' passage on the right. Ceiling height is 10.5' with a floating false ceiling 2.5' from all sides at 9.5' from the ground.Based on both suggestions and using the calculator on the Cardas site, I have the speakers about 4.5' out from the wall. The left speaker is 39" from the left wall and the right one is 60". I've moved the listening position forward by 1' from earlier and sit between the two speakers. This position has had no WAF issues (yet). Below are some photos of the room with the new placements.
My intitial observations are: The sound has become more 3 dimensional. Bass levels are the same but it has become tighter and faster with almost no boom. Voices seem to have become more forward and upfront too. There seems to be no major change in the top end brightness that I have been experiencing earlier. There has definitely been a VERY audible impmrovement. CD's played - Jack Johnson - In Between Dreams, Sarah Mclachlan - Afterglow, INXS - Definitive & Patricia Barber - Mythologies. It's afternoon here right now, will do some more critical listening tonight and report.
Given that this speaker placement makes a huge difference, can I expect a further improvement by using the 3.6's or ML Odyssey's? I am hoping to cure some high end brightness and maybe an improvement in the midrange with the upgrade.
The brightness and midrange issues with your present setup may be caused by uncontrolled early reflections, RF noise, mechanical chatter in your equipment support, or a combination.With your present best placement for bass, figure out the first-reflection areas on the side walls. These are the places where you would see the images of the tweeters if the walls were covered with mirrors. Experiment with folded blankets on these areas to see if the brightness problem improves.
Another area to treat is the place where you would see your reflection if the wall behind the speakers were covered with mirrors. This will affect the sound-stage more than the brightness, but it may help.
Mechanical chatter is caused by casual contact of hard materials. I've had it affect the treble in my system, so I'm including it for completeness.
RF noise is a widespread problem in better home audio systems. It affects all frequencies, but is most noticeable as a sense of brightness, fore-shortened sound-stage, and a dry and uninvolving midrange. The MG-3.6s will not make this problem better, and may make it worse.
If placement and wall treatment do not completely cure your brightness and midrange problems, and even leave you with a sense of missing treble information from the quasi-ribbon tweeters, then it is likely you have RF noise issues and would not get the benefit of the MG-3.6s. However, if you do get the speakers and suffer from the problem, there are things you can do to ameliorate the problem and improve the performance. How much this costs depends on your willingess to use a soldering iron.
Your suggestions have been very valuable. The biggest problem I am facing with the speakers pulled into the room is that they obstruct viewing the projector screen from any angle except the listening position which is a major WAF issue. This will only get worse with the 3.6's larger size. I have to now figure out a way to be able to pull the maggies in during critical listening which is not easy as I have marble blocks on the stands behind. I guess the only other option is to build another room!I have put my 3.6 purchase on hold for now till I can figure out placement. In the meantime, if I can convince the dealer with the ML's to send me the pair on demo, will try that option. I don't know how susceptible those are to room placements, will have to listen.
I had corresponded with Mye Audio about a year ago but shipping to where I am (India) was super expensive so I dropped the idea. Will probably make a pair of my own and experiment.
than the Magnepan. All dipole speakers are sensitive to location in the room.An alternative if you ever do get the true-ribbon Magnepans is to turn them by 90 degrees so that the edges are facing forward. This works because the ribbons have nearly 180-degree dispersion. I have my MG-20s oriented this way. This opens up the area between the speakers, but they protrude farther into the room. The centers of the bass panel sections are located at the Cardas positions.
I understand about the shipping expense for Mye stands. I'm guessing the cost for Maggies and your electronics over there is also much higher then here in the US.Only the lucky few have a perfect, dedicated, listening rooms over which they have complete control. The the rest of us have to make compromises to one degree or another. The goal is to make the compromises which give you the best results you can get. Hey, you can only do your best.
Based on everything you've said to this point as well as the updated room measurements and the screen issue, I would agree to putting the 3.6's on hold for the moment. Work on getting the best you can from the 1.6's. Good luck!
Good start, The high end problem is likely the result of the reflectiveness of your room and possibly your electronics as well.The empty sheetrock wall behind the speakers is very reflective, you have a hardwood floor only partially covered by a rug,and a large window right behind your listening position.
There are all sorts of room treatments you can apply to address the makeup of your room. Search this site or see articles in the MUG Home option. There are echo busters which can be placed in corners, there are devices to defract the sound on portions of the rear wall, the list goes on. Some of these devices can be expensive and run up against the WAF. Some less so
Changing the toe-in of the 1.6s and altering the vertical tilt can also have a large impact. Adding aftermarket stands like the Mye Stands can also bring much improvement to the bass and the soundstage.
Mye stands are expensive so you won't want to buy them now if you're definite about upgrading to the 3.6's. But if you stay with the 1.6's or get the 3.6's get Mye stands for them. They make a difference. Grant Vandermye, the owner/designer of Mye Sound is a member of this forum. He has a website, but I'm not sure the rules of the forum allow me to mention it in this post.
Finally, you seem really anxious to get the 3.6's. Personally I would wait until I resolved the issues with your listening room before I made that committment. Again, the 3.6's may or may not sound better than the 1.6's in your room even after you've applied room treatments. Your room is on the small side for speakers that large. They will also visually dominate your moderate sized living room much more than the 1.6's. The 3.6 panels are 6 inches taller and 5 inches wider. It doesn't sound like much, but they're big.
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