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Would ML Prodigy's be a better option then?

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maxzimum

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In Reply to: The ribbon tweeters will reveal all RF noise problems posted by Al Sekela on December 7, 2006 at 15:08:57:

I have been offered a pair of these too at roughly the same price. The prodigy's are a demo unit.

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A well-known Bay Area Magnepan dealer carries M-L. - Al Sekela 13:41:10 12/08/06 (12)
He says they are fine for selling Magnepans!
Chauvinism aside, any good electrostats will reveal distortion even more clearly than stock Magnepans. I think you would get better sound from the MG-3.6s in the long run if you accept the challenge of finding and treating sources of noise and distortion that the speakers will reveal. If this does not sound like fun, then be sure you like the way they sound in your present system. I'm trying to save you from making a purchase you might regret.
- Thanks for the advise. Do you feel the 3.6 is a better option? - maxzimum 20:50:48 12/08/06 (11)
  The aim here is to improve the overall sound.
  You say "finding and treating sources of noise and distortion that the speakers will reveal". Do you mean room interactions or upstream equipment?
  TIA
  - All of it. MaggieLover's post below summarizes the issues. - Al Sekela 11:03:26 12/09/06 (9)
    I will only add that you should at least try the Cardas positions for your speakers, as an experiment. George Cardas' design philosophy is to use the Golden Ratio (do a Google search, or see for example
    http://mathworld.wolfram.com/GoldenRatio.html
    for a complete discussion) as a way of distributing resonance modes to minimize their overlaps. His formulas for speaker placement have to do with minimizing the overlaps of the resonance modes that result from proximity of the bass driver to the various reflecting surfaces in the room. They work wonderfully well in my rectangular room with an opening to the side of one speaker similar to yours.
    Be sure to listen to a number of well-recorded acoustic bass instruments.
    This experiment will save you a lot of trouble. It will reveal the 'best' (smoothest) bass that your speakers and amps can deliver in your room. That bass may be adequate or not, but MG-3.6s will not deliver such bass if they are not in the identical positions.
    If the bass you get in the WAF-friendly normal positions is not much worse than what you get in the Cardas positions, then you will likely enjoy the improved performance you would get with MG-3.6s.
    Room treatments to reduce early reflections do not affect the fundamental resonances addressed by placement, but they are necessary in some cases to get good treble balance and sound-stage. The true-ribbon Magnepan tweeter is one of the best available. Its dispersion is greater than the quasi-ribbons, so you may need additional treatments with MG-3.6s. These may also raise WAF issues.
    The true-ribbon tweeter reveals problems with electronics, and may contribute to them by acting as a radio antenna. Some amps respond badly to RF noise picked up by the speaker and/or speaker cable. Many users complain of excessive "brightness" with true-ribbon Maggies and try to treat it by adding series resistors to the tweeters. The problem may be one of RF noise and intermodulation distortion (especially if early reflections have been treated), and the resistors only make things dull and colored. There are specific treatments for RF noise, but time does not permit me to review them here.
    - Cardas Insights; "Room Setup" (Open in New Window)
    - Re: All of it. MaggieLover's post below summarizes the issues. - MaggieLover 14:58:46 12/09/06 (8)
      I agree with all your points. The speaker placement direction I gave him were. of course, roughly based on the Cardas formula for dipoles.
      One further comment. While the treble and bass may or may not be better in his room with the 3.6's, the likelyhood that the soundstaging will be improved due to placement issues and reflective walls is fairly slim. For me these speakers are all about soundtaging, especially in the 3rd dimension. If one is not prepared to plan for, and make the effort necessary to get the best from these speakers, the end result may be ultimately unsatisfying.
      I know someone who has $10,000 a pair tower speakers who has to keep them shoved near the corners of the rear and side walls. When he heard my Maggies, he loved the sound and said he would get them instead, but, they would occupy the same locations as the towers. I talked him out of it, and instead set up a little experiment in his room. I brought my Paradigm Studio 20's version 1 and stands to his home. I set them up for near field listening, moving his listening position away from the wall. Voila! Although you can't compare the Paradigm's to his speakers, the overall integrated sound I was able to give him was ultimately more satisfying, i.e a wide and deep soundstage.
      Not enough people realize the impact a room can have, and yet they spend megabucks on systems which will ultimately not provide any more satisfaction than a much more modest system.
      - Re: All of it. MaggieLover's post below summarizes the issues. - maxzimum 22:05:54 12/09/06 (7)
        
        In Reply to: Re: All of it. MaggieLover's post below summarizes the issues. posted by MaggieLover on December 9, 2006 at 14:58:46:
        
        Thank you both for the very valuable advice. I will experiment with speaker placement as well as the Cardas setup and report back.
        In my existing setup (the speakers are currently about 3.5' from the wall) bass seems to be pretty adequate. The improvements I was hoping to get were a better midrange and a slightly less brighter top end which is what the dealer said I could expect from the 3.6's or the ML Odyssey's.
        
        Re: All of it. MaggieLover's post below summarizes the issues. - MaggieLover 22:37:43 12/09/06 (6)
        
        In Reply to: Re: All of it. MaggieLover's post below summarizes the issues. posted by maxzimum on December 9, 2006 at 22:05:54:
        
        Best of luck. Setup can be time consuming and frustrating, but in the end very rewarding. Moving the speakers even an inch or two at a time can have a large impact on the presentation.
        It's possible you've never experienced the breathtaking results that can be achived with the 1.6s and the 3.6's. In the best case, on good recordings there is a strong sense of live musicians playing in a three dimensional space in front of you, with the soundstage extending past the speakers to the side walls and beyond and well beyond the wall behind the speakers. The speakers and walls just disappear. Very few of us have that perfect room, but the goal is to get as close as possible.
        
        Made changes and.. - maxzimum 02:13:54 12/10/06 (5)
        
        In Reply to: Re: All of it. MaggieLover's post below summarizes the issues. posted by MaggieLover on December 9, 2006 at 22:37:43:
        
        Measured my room again. It's 15' wide and 16' long. The wall behind the speakers is 12's wide with a 3' passage on the right. Ceiling height is 10.5' with a floating false ceiling 2.5' from all sides at 9.5' from the ground.
        Based on both suggestions and using the calculator on the Cardas site, I have the speakers about 4.5' out from the wall. The left speaker is 39" from the left wall and the right one is 60". I've moved the listening position forward by 1' from earlier and sit between the two speakers. This position has had no WAF issues (yet). Below are some photos of the room with the new placements.
        My intitial observations are: The sound has become more 3 dimensional. Bass levels are the same but it has become tighter and faster with almost no boom. Voices seem to have become more forward and upfront too. There seems to be no major change in the top end brightness that I have been experiencing earlier. There has definitely been a VERY audible impmrovement. CD's played - Jack Johnson - In Between Dreams, Sarah Mclachlan - Afterglow, INXS - Definitive & Patricia Barber - Mythologies. It's afternoon here right now, will do some more critical listening tonight and report.
        Given that this speaker placement makes a huge difference, can I expect a further improvement by using the 3.6's or ML Odyssey's? I am hoping to cure some high end brightness and maybe an improvement in the midrange with the upgrade.
        
        Congratulations to you and MaggieLover for good progress! - Al Sekela 11:51:14 12/10/06 (3)
        
        In Reply to: Made changes and.. posted by maxzimum on December 10, 2006 at 02:13:54:
        
        The brightness and midrange issues with your present setup may be caused by uncontrolled early reflections, RF noise, mechanical chatter in your equipment support, or a combination.
        With your present best placement for bass, figure out the first-reflection areas on the side walls. These are the places where you would see the images of the tweeters if the walls were covered with mirrors. Experiment with folded blankets on these areas to see if the brightness problem improves.
        Another area to treat is the place where you would see your reflection if the wall behind the speakers were covered with mirrors. This will affect the sound-stage more than the brightness, but it may help.
        Mechanical chatter is caused by casual contact of hard materials. I've had it affect the treble in my system, so I'm including it for completeness.
        RF noise is a widespread problem in better home audio systems. It affects all frequencies, but is most noticeable as a sense of brightness, fore-shortened sound-stage, and a dry and uninvolving midrange. The MG-3.6s will not make this problem better, and may make it worse.
        If placement and wall treatment do not completely cure your brightness and midrange problems, and even leave you with a sense of missing treble information from the quasi-ribbon tweeters, then it is likely you have RF noise issues and would not get the benefit of the MG-3.6s. However, if you do get the speakers and suffer from the problem, there are things you can do to ameliorate the problem and improve the performance. How much this costs depends on your willingess to use a soldering iron.
        
        Thank you Al and Maggielover... - maxzimum 23:02:16 12/10/06 (2)
        
        In Reply to: Congratulations to you and MaggieLover for good progress! posted by Al Sekela on December 10, 2006 at 11:51:14:
        
        Your suggestions have been very valuable. The biggest problem I am facing with the speakers pulled into the room is that they obstruct viewing the projector screen from any angle except the listening position which is a major WAF issue. This will only get worse with the 3.6's larger size. I have to now figure out a way to be able to pull the maggies in during critical listening which is not easy as I have marble blocks on the stands behind. I guess the only other option is to build another room!
        I have put my 3.6 purchase on hold for now till I can figure out placement. In the meantime, if I can convince the dealer with the ML's to send me the pair on demo, will try that option. I don't know how susceptible those are to room placements, will have to listen.
        I had corresponded with Mye Audio about a year ago but shipping to where I am (India) was super expensive so I dropped the idea. Will probably make a pair of my own and experiment.
        Thank you once again and Happy Holidays!
        
        I think you will find the M-L sweet-spot is smaller - Al Sekela 11:20:24 12/11/06 (0)
        
        In Reply to: Thank you Al and Maggielover... posted by maxzimum on December 10, 2006 at 23:02:16:
        
        than the Magnepan. All dipole speakers are sensitive to location in the room.
        An alternative if you ever do get the true-ribbon Magnepans is to turn them by 90 degrees so that the edges are facing forward. This works because the ribbons have nearly 180-degree dispersion. I have my MG-20s oriented this way. This opens up the area between the speakers, but they protrude farther into the room. The centers of the bass panel sections are located at the Cardas positions.
        Good luck with your quest.
        
        Re: Thank you Al and Maggielover... - MaggieLover 03:48:46 12/11/06 (0)
        
        In Reply to: Thank you Al and Maggielover... posted by maxzimum on December 10, 2006 at 23:02:16:
        
        I understand about the shipping expense for Mye stands. I'm guessing the cost for Maggies and your electronics over there is also much higher then here in the US.
        Only the lucky few have a perfect, dedicated, listening rooms over which they have complete control. The the rest of us have to make compromises to one degree or another. The goal is to make the compromises which give you the best results you can get. Hey, you can only do your best.
        Based on everything you've said to this point as well as the updated room measurements and the screen issue, I would agree to putting the 3.6's on hold for the moment. Work on getting the best you can from the 1.6's. Good luck!
        
        Re: Made changes and.. - MaggieLover 09:36:24 12/10/06 (0)
        
        In Reply to: Made changes and.. posted by maxzimum on December 10, 2006 at 02:13:54:
        
        Good start, The high end problem is likely the result of the reflectiveness of your room and possibly your electronics as well.
        The empty sheetrock wall behind the speakers is very reflective, you have a hardwood floor only partially covered by a rug,and a large window right behind your listening position.
        There are all sorts of room treatments you can apply to address the makeup of your room. Search this site or see articles in the MUG Home option. There are echo busters which can be placed in corners, there are devices to defract the sound on portions of the rear wall, the list goes on. Some of these devices can be expensive and run up against the WAF. Some less so
        Changing the toe-in of the 1.6s and altering the vertical tilt can also have a large impact. Adding aftermarket stands like the Mye Stands can also bring much improvement to the bass and the soundstage.
        Mye stands are expensive so you won't want to buy them now if you're definite about upgrading to the 3.6's. But if you stay with the 1.6's or get the 3.6's get Mye stands for them. They make a difference. Grant Vandermye, the owner/designer of Mye Sound is a member of this forum. He has a website, but I'm not sure the rules of the forum allow me to mention it in this post.
        Finally, you seem really anxious to get the 3.6's. Personally I would wait until I resolved the issues with your listening room before I made that committment. Again, the 3.6's may or may not sound better than the 1.6's in your room even after you've applied room treatments. Your room is on the small side for speakers that large. They will also visually dominate your moderate sized living room much more than the 1.6's. The 3.6 panels are 6 inches taller and 5 inches wider. It doesn't sound like much, but they're big.
  - Re: Thanks for the advise. Do you feel the 3.6 is a better option? - MaggieLover 07:36:15 12/09/06 (0)
    I'll put it more bluntly than I did before. Based on the picture you submitted, its very unlikely you're getting the best possible results from the 1.6s you already have the way they're setup. It's further unlikely the 3.6s will give their best in the same positions. You'll hear a difference. The bass may go deeper, or it may not, the highs may sound better, or worse due to the highly reflective rear and side wall.
    In a less than ideal room setup, throwing in a higher end model of a competent speaker brand does always result in improved sound. You might find the lower end speaker, (in this case the 1.6s) works better.
    The 3.6s are very revealing of electronics as well as recordings. You will hear recording flaws you never heard before, ticks, rumbling, tonal problems, miking problems. Its amazing.
    I and others have urged you to listen to the 3.6's in your own room first. But I have a further suggestion. While I know the WAF will limit permanent placement, have you tried moving the Maggies out from the walls? Bring them forward towards your listening position so they're around 60" from the rear wall. make sure the center of the woofer panel is around 43" from the nearest side wall if you have 8' ceilings. The tweeters should be on the outside edge. Toe in the speakers so the tweeters point somewhere past your seating position. and finally move you seating position away from the wall a couple of feet more then currently and make sure your sitting dead center between the speakers. Then listen! At this point, start moving the speakers in,out, left and right 1-2 inches at a time to find the best postion. When you find it, you'll know. The highly reflective rear and side wall are a whole other issue, and will definitely impact the sound. The Maggies are light. If they are on stock stands they can be moved whenever you want more than background listening.
    If you've tried all this and it failed to work for you, fine. But if not, I wouldn't even think about upgrading to the 3.6s until I did.
Sorry.. I meant ML Odyssey - not Prodigy (nt) - maxzimum 22:43:21 12/07/06 (0)
nt

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