• Re: Maggies and active crossovers - Dawnrazor 14:37:05 11/20/06 (0)
  In Reply to: Maggies and active crossovers posted by slownlo on November 19, 2006 at 15:45:52:

  I am doing the same thing, but am using a computer based system for the crossover. Pcs are amazing as crossovers, and if you have the processing power, you can do just about any slope and frequency ( I have seen.

  That is with just free plug ins to free programs.

  Lately, I have been thinking of getting a better crossover program like this one:

  http://www.thuneau.com/products.htm

  A poster at the PC audio forum who has the same pro card I do said that the pc crossover couldn't be bettered by his Marchand or the passives that came with the speakers.

  Transient perfect crossovers for $90!!
  
  
  

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• Re: Maggies and active crossovers - Rod H. 12:00:21 11/20/06 (0)
  In Reply to: Maggies and active crossovers posted by slownlo on November 19, 2006 at 15:45:52:

  I use an active two-way between my Maggies and subs. You better believe that if the unit I have was a three-way crossover I'd have at least tried it before modding my passives!

  Active seems like the way to go.

  Rod
  
  

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• Re: Maggies and active crossovers - gladstone 10:59:14 11/20/06 (1)
  In Reply to: Maggies and active crossovers posted by slownlo on November 19, 2006 at 15:45:52:

  There is no other way to run these speakers. I have just gone active on the Magnepan 20.1s. No contest.
  
  

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  • Re: Maggies and active crossovers - throwback 06:29:55 11/29/06 (0)
    In Reply to: Re: Maggies and active crossovers posted by gladstone on November 20, 2006 at 10:59:14:

    Hey, Gladstone
    I also have 20.1's and am thinking about bi- or even tri-amping. How are you doing it? I think I'll start off using the Wolcott 280's on mid/treble with a Bryston on the woofer panels. Then maybe adding a sub if I don't get the results I want. Which active x-over are you using? What x-over freq (s) do you have it set at?

    Finally, have you done any other mods on your 20.1's? I did Al Sekela's choke mod on the tweeters and they seemed to help. I believe tha 20.1's should sound more dynamic. Maybe the fact that I live at 7000' (Colorado) has something to do with it.

    Thanks,
    Chuck
    
    

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• Re: Maggies and active crossovers - neolith 09:54:30 11/20/06 (0)
  In Reply to: Maggies and active crossovers posted by slownlo on November 19, 2006 at 15:45:52:

  I agree with Davey's sentiments. I was wondering if a 2nd order crossover (phase aligned) might not sound better and I would compare that to a simulation of the passive crossover. Unfortunately the Rane unit does not give you that flexibility. My suggestion would be to save up a few dollars and either get the Marchand XM-44 or a DSP unit (Behringer) so you could alter slopes and use asymmetric crossovers.
  In any case welcome to the active biamp club.
  

  I may be an egoist but at least I don't talk about other people.
  
  

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• Re: Maggies and active crossovers - Davey 07:26:39 11/20/06 (4)
  In Reply to: Maggies and active crossovers posted by slownlo on November 19, 2006 at 15:45:52:

  A standard Linkwitz-Riley 4th-order slope crossover sums electrically to something quite a bit different than the stock crossover of a 1.6. Yes, you've made an improvement with regards to direct drive and all the benefits associated with that, but you've also changed the engineering of the system considerably as well. This should result in a noticeably boosted midrange. Time will tell if you ultimately like this tonal balance.

  It's just not as simple as removing the passive crossover and inserting active crossover...insert brand here...into the mix.

  Cheers,

  Davey.
  
  

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  • Re: Maggies and active crossovers - gymwear5@hotmail.com 10:38:13 11/20/06 (3)
    In Reply to: Re: Maggies and active crossovers posted by Davey on November 20, 2006 at 07:26:39:

    No it's not as simple, but you should always be able to get a "better" sound. In designing a passive crossover the engineer is limited by the impedance characteristics of the drivers themselves, often resulting in compromize solutions the produce audible artifacts in directional pressure or intensity response. Davey, you might be right in that those "artifacts" might be the defining nature of the loudspeaker's sound. with a flexible crossover/eq you can "restore" or even improve on the sound in the "Nice" realm before current amplification.
    
    

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    • Re: Maggies and active crossovers - Davey 15:34:52 11/20/06 (2)
      In Reply to: Re: Maggies and active crossovers posted by gymwear5@hotmail.com on November 20, 2006 at 10:38:13:

      Well, passive crossover design for a Maggie is somewhat simpler than a conventional speaker because the impedances involved are resistive in nature. I wouldn't say a designer is "limited" by the impedance, but it certainly has to be incorporated into the design. For a line-level crossover you really don't have to consider it.

      Ultimately, the shape of the electrical slopes driving the transducers produces the final output. My point was that.....in the case of the 1.6.....the electrical slopes for the stock network are completely different than those produced by a generic active crossover with LR24 slopes. A comparison of active and passive in that case is really not valid. It's apples and oranges.

      Cheers,

      Davey.
      
      

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      • Re: Maggies and active crossovers - lne937s 08:02:55 11/21/06 (1)
        In Reply to: Re: Maggies and active crossovers posted by Davey on November 20, 2006 at 15:34:52:

        "Ultimately, the shape of the electrical slopes driving the transducers produces the final output."

        You need to keep in mind the acoustic output at the listening position. While the impedance may be flat, acoustic output is often not flat in the crossover region. If you look at the standard crossovers (particularly 2 ways), from an electrical standpoint, there would be a significant dip in the crossover region. However, this dip disappears at the listening position due to the acoustic output of the drivers. Creating flat frequency response either requires adjusting the crossover slopes or equalization (which would essentially accomplish the same thing- reducing output in the crossover region).

        I am emphasizing "at the listening position" because of the dispersion characteristics of the panels, the dipole configuration and the fact that they tend to have significantly different response when close mic’ed.

        When I started doing passive DIY crossovers, I didn't take output into consideration (just impedance curves) and they often sounded horrible. It took a lot of trial and error to figure out what I was doing and get them right.
        
        
        

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        • Re: Maggies and active crossovers - Davey 12:20:55 11/21/06 (0)
          In Reply to: Re: Maggies and active crossovers posted by lne937s on November 21, 2006 at 08:02:55:

          Yes, obviously the electrical slopes may not sum flat....in fact they almost always don't. Unless some sort of generic crossover is used like mentioned in this thread. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough in my statement.

          However, acoustic output should sum flat in the crossover region...at least on the design axis. However, as you noted, with large transducer speaker systems close miked measurements are not that useful.
          It's possible that a designer might try to optimize for a more even off-axis performance at the expense of on-axis response, but you don't see that done very often.

          Cheers,

          Davey.
          
          

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• Re: Maggies and active crossovers - gymwear5@hotmail.com 06:22:34 11/20/06 (3)
  In Reply to: Maggies and active crossovers posted by slownlo on November 19, 2006 at 15:45:52:

  It constantly amazes me that guys will spend Hundreds of $$$ on expensive passive upgrades when going biamp with pedestrian equipment will cost the same or less and generate dramatic improvements. You can ask why doesn't magneplanar (or other manufacturers) offer a biamp option? Well if they allow their customers to pick amps and crossover settings it becomes a very complicated set-up procedure and the customer will risk blowing something up. That's why on the biamp tri amp products out there you also see the Amps included in the package. I thing with the newer products like the ICE amp modules that provide audiophile performance we will see some more BIAMP producs out there. However, only in the highend speakers $5K or better.

  Though the cost in quantities for the ICE modules are about $350 that means the manufacturer has to bump the price at least a couple kilobucks per speaker to offer a pair of them in a biamp configuration.
  
  

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  • Correct me if I'm wrong, but... - Kiefer74.1 05:09:22 11/21/06 (0)
    In Reply to: Re: Maggies and active crossovers posted by gymwear5@hotmail.com on November 20, 2006 at 06:22:34:

    Maggie 1.6's Do have a bi-amp option on the input terminals. You can either connect to the highest (of the 3) for regular input, or choose, by taking the jumpers out of the lower 2 to bi-wire the hi and low frequencies.
    Granted you're still working with the stock x-overs at this point.
    Jon
    aka (kiefer74)
    
    

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  • Re: Maggies and active crossovers - Dawnrazor 10:00:42 11/20/06 (1)
    In Reply to: Re: Maggies and active crossovers posted by gymwear5@hotmail.com on November 20, 2006 at 06:22:34:

    These guys are making speakers without passives for the purposes you describe.
    

    • http://www.newformresearch.com/digital-systems-overview.htm   (Open in New Window)

    
    

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    • Re: Maggies and active crossovers - gymwear5@hotmail.com 10:29:33 11/20/06 (0)
      In Reply to: Re: Maggies and active crossovers posted by Dawnrazor on November 20, 2006 at 10:00:42:

      I use the Behringer ultradrive all the time...

      Quiet, flexible & cheap!
      
      

      ---
• Yo!! :-)) As they say in the classics ... - andyr 19:32:41 11/19/06 (2)
  In Reply to: Maggies and active crossovers posted by slownlo on November 19, 2006 at 15:45:52:

  "Once you go active you NEVER go back"!! :-))

  Re. "getting so much more power" ... the rule of thumb is that, compared to a single amp driving a passive XO, active equates to a single amp of TWICE the sum of the powers of the two amps.

  Regards,

  Andy
  
  
  
  

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  • One question... - Kiefer74.1 05:25:20 11/21/06 (1)
    In Reply to: Yo!! :-)) As they say in the classics ... posted by andyr on November 19, 2006 at 19:32:41:

    Does this include a pair of mono-blocks? I'm pretty sure I can (since I'm getting them upgraded right now) get two inputs in my amps if needed. Fortunately Rogue Audio iz very flexible on my needs, whatever they might be. In fact I'll be callin' Mark in just a few minutes.
    So do I need 2 inputs on my amps (m-150's)?

    I need as much power as I can get. It's safe to say that I listen to most music much louder than the average 'audiphile' person. I want to get the most out of what I have (well, what I'm getting back) in terms of loudness without the loss of clarity, texture, depth, soundstage etc...

    your thoughts?

    Jon

    aka (kiefer74)
    
    

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    • Re: One question... - andyr 11:55:09 11/21/06 (0)
      In Reply to: One question... posted by Kiefer74.1 on November 21, 2006 at 05:25:20:

      You asked: "Does this include a pair of mono-blocks?"

      Well, yes! :-))

      I have 3 monoblocks behind each IIIa (all the same make). Theire power specs are:
      * 100w into 8 ohms on the bass
      * 55w into 8 ohms on the mids
      * 25w into 8 ohms on the ribbons.

      Which means I have the equivalent of a single monoblock with 360w (into 8 ohms) driving the passive crossovers.

      Regards,

      Andy
      
      
      
      

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