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First, the analysis bit...a) Speakers : Tannoy D700
- Nominal Impedance : 6 ohms
- Quoted Sensitivity: 93dB at 1m
- Listening Distance: ~3 metresb) Amplifier: Jeff Rowland Model 201 monoblocks (x2)
- Output into 8ohms : 250 watts per channel
- Output into 4ohms : 500 watts per channel
- Output into 6ohms : 375 watts per channel (interpolated)
- Amp Damping Factor: >1,000c) Calculation as per formula:
- From Amp Power Table: 25dB
- Speaker Sensitivity : 93dB
- Maximum SPL (1metre): 118dB
- Distance Attenuation: ((3-1) x -5) = (2 x -5) = -10 dB
- Peak Listening Level: 108dB
Next, some thoughts on "The Meaning of Wife"...a) All of the above is totally academic:
- SWMBO will gripe at levels that depend on her mood
- If SWMBO is out, the kids will gripe at various levels
- If all humans are out, the pets will gripe
- If you're alone, the neighbours will gripeb) Sound and levels mean nothing if the gear is "ugly":
- SWMBO (aka BWFH) will focus on visual aesthetics
- Sonic performance comes a definite lastc) Definition/meaning of the term "Watt":
- Electrical definition is totally irrelevant
- Correct spelling is actually "WHAT?"
- Context for use: After being told price of componentSo, there you have it - the DE view...
Follow Ups:
I understand the Wife part but you're using somewhere between 250 & 500w to drive those Tannoys?
Isn't that a wee bit of overkill? Somehow I had you figured for 30-40w of tube amplification for those speakers.
Maybe it's just my predilection for high eff. speakers and low wattage amps.
jac - desperaudio
To understand the situation, some of the background is necessary.When I first got the D700's, I had an Audiolab 8000A MkII - a competent 60wpc integrated - plus am Audiolab 8000P MkII - another competent device, albeit a 100wpc power amp. After buggering about with a passive bi-amp set-up, I fell back on using the 8000A just as a pre-amp as this sounded more musical.
Burglars removed the Audiolabs and - using the insurance payout + a few bob extra - were replaced by Classe' CP-50 and CA-100 (still 100 wpc) as Audiolab distributorship had folded. This offered some discernible overall improvement - as I'd hoped.
There was still some nagging doubt in my mind about the overall system - I felt that the D700's were not performing up to the level I really expected. Low bass seemed slightly "loose-ish" and the soundstage lacked depth.
When the next burglary happened and the Classe' pre/pwr became third world currency items, I was initially attracted to the Classe' CP-500 and CA-2100 (still 100 wpc) as they were virtually direct replacements and my insurance policy was geared for this.
Then I did some research and noted that the CP-500 and CA-2100 were quite a lot more expensive than the CP-50 and CA-100 had been - even allowing for inflation and currency fluctuations.
To cut short a long story, I got the assessor to agree to the CP-500 & CA-2100 (as replacements), and then to agree to a switch from CA-2100 to the Rowland 201's.
I'd been eyeing the 201's for about a year and had also done a fair amount of internet study on speakers, LF response and spatial cue reproduction, and had reached a tentative conclusion that Damping Factor (DF) was the culprit as far as my perceived problems with the D700s' LF/staging.
Classe' avoid any and all mention of their power amps' DF values, while Rowland were quite candid and quoted a number > 1,000.
So, I got the 201's and have not once regretted the decision. The combination of Classe' CP-500 & Rowland 201 is a match made in Heaven, while the D700's now have an upstream partner that really makes them sing!
The 201's must take credit for tightening up the low bass (that damping factor provides great control) and, indirectly for really opening up the soundstage (probably due to the improved control across the spectrum).
As far as the CP-500 is concerned, this is one seriously good pre-amp and is an order of magnitude better than the CP-50 it replaced.
So too for the in-built phono stage - the new phono stage on the CP-500 is a dual-mono design consisting of four daughter boards and not just a single daughter-board. Each channel has separate boards for gain and equalisation. The overall effect is to produce a very quiet, inky black backdrop to vinyl playback that - to me, at least - is a first.
The 250-500 watt issue? I initially felt this may just have been overkill but one day a colleague who has a yen to get into audio came 'round to listen and made a comment that rung a bell...
He said (amongst other things) that he felt that the system's sound was like a "mailed fist in a velvet glove" - nice and delicate, but with huge reserves of clout.
This triggered a train of thought around dynamic headroom - a process which culminated in that dBW arithmetic result of ~108dB (which is way, way above my preferred normal listening level of probably between 90dB and 96dB - I have the CP-500 configured to limit the maximum volume setting to 70 out of a 100).
The bottom line is that it works very well for me and does what I want it to - play music very well!
"mailed fist in a velvet glove" - that part I can understand. I like that concept. Most of that is likely why I've never really been able to get my Epos es22s to sing to me and why they're (a) in storage and (b) for sale.They need some headroom I've never been able to find or afford. Closest has been driving them with a QUAD 405 on the woofers and a tubed Dynaco on the mid/tweeters - close but no ceegar as it's been said.
I've not heard any of the "Classe'" gear but I know I'd really like to. Everything I've heard has tweaked my interest.
I'd also like to try to find the tubed Copland CT-305 pre-amp. Not nearly as well known but highly regarded. And has a lower output gain than most pre-amps I've had through the system. Most of the SS pre-amps I find tend to have a gain factor measured in the mid-hi 20s and with the efficiency of both the Cornwalls and the Corals I can turn the volume up to a touch over completely off before it's to loud. The only unit I've been able to find with low gain (14dB) is the QUAD 34 and while it is quite good it isn't tha last word either.
I'll wait. The right one parts will show up sometime.It is an interesting path you've taken to get where you are. Albeit a wee bit painful given how an invasion of your living space made the upgrades necessary.
My library of Tannoy knowledge has now increased by several measures thanks to both you and Tim.
Now that I think about it - I do remember hearing a pair of Tannoy Churchills in my (late and lamented) favourite audio store. They were being driven, on separate occasions,by a 200wpc Sim Audio Moon and a home brew 3wpc tube amp. Different sounds as night and day but both with merits. The Moon had the bass thundering - as would be expected - but something went missing in the mid-upper end and the little tube dealy had almost no low bass but had a very sweet fluidity in the middle.
Remind me to, if I haven't already, to tell the tale of the other listener, a youngish 30something lad, who left the presentation complaining of a lack of bass with the Moon amp doing the honours [Sim Audio pre-amp and a Wilson-Benesch TT). That's a great story on its own.Thanks for taking the time to explain it all.
jac - desperaudio
MC reviewed them in July 1993 for HFN&RR and rated tham as nearer a 4 ohm load than a 6ohm load. And they can handle 250 watts of power pretty easily and they can drive lage rooms and DE does have a large room IIRC.Collioms noted how easily the load killed amps at high levels.
I would think that you'd need a 'big PSU' type BIGG valve amp, SS diodes, chokes and lotsa capacitance say a pr of ARC 100 watters tapped for 4 or less ohms, to make them kick arse.
From 100 hz to 300 or so the measured impedance under 1 watt drive is 3.1 ohms, and the phase angle is a bit fierce down there in the bass, too. So CURRENT demands are high! How low the Z might go and under heavy drive, as per Matti Ottala's findings*, we don't know.
* EG. the supposedly easy load (> 8 ohms effective under test conditions) of the Yamaha NS1000M, (a pr of which I didn't buy and bought the spheres) can fall to 2.5 ohms in the bass and midbass under hard drive. Linn's Sara's and Isobariks were a good deal worse!!!
Note that IME and others the 1000's LOVE Quad II and Leak St20's.
;-)!!!
WarmestTimbo in Oz
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio ScroungerAnd gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
ARGHHHHHH the turn that NOISE down syndrome!!!spkrs 91db/w, biamp array 26 watts ~ 14db/w,
Listening distance <2 metres! say minus 5dbw?
maximum peaks? 105 minus 5 = 100db!
but these are valve amps with at least 3db headroom, two of.
so peaks over 100 are do-able sans audible clipping.
Soon I will be adding 40wp.c. to drive 'in-parallel passive' bass Eq*', using a 2nd pair of sphere 3's. Adjustable level and boost. Driven from about 180hz on and down into the 20's.
* Baffle diffraction step compensation, (single model3's Audio spheres just did NOT do BDSC'n,) as there was/IS no Lowpass xover. AND some ELF extension down into the mid 20's. Viz; a longer port and '2nd order with gain' active boost (6th order) OR sealed, and 2nd order active boost (4th). Either way the 2nd order filter should kill any infrasonic cone wobbles either from vinyl or CD, and lower the amount of power wasted on such signals while easing the load the amp sees!
This should give us another step up in achievable peaks, possibly 6db in total but actually, I'm hoping that - it lets us both listen - @ somewhat less loud levels together. As the sound will have more oomph down where orchestras growl, and rock band's pound it out, from the upper bass and on down.
And, the LP filter @ ~ 180 hz into the bass-only sphere won't be in the full-range feed to the biamped 3's. Also the bass sphere ought to add seemlessly to the main pair, BEING THE SAME DRIVER AND ENCL, and having a sphere a foot or so below - shouldn't drastically effect the mains pair's diffraction behaviour, imaging and transparency. I'll probably re-use the big cushions as well!
there is also driving the room in the bass from two different points, the slot-load on the longer port for control, AND I'll be putting a trumpet mouth on its exit avec nipples, both ala B&W's ELF ports.
Look Ma, no sub!!!!!!
Then I can build those 12's into our bed base!
WarmestTimbo in Oz
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio ScroungerAnd gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
there has to be a "Shut up, damnit, I'm listening to muic!" command on there somewhere. ;~)
...he's talking about.You must have the bargain remote...
Has to be one of my favorite movies of all time.
"I've lost my remote control; I use it to change the channels"
Agreed; it's a brilliant filmThe Biltmore house where much of Being There was filmed is the largest private residence in North America
... labelled - not surprisingly - F1 to F4...(thinks, now I can get back to programming after so many years)
After successful programming, the remote should execute a verbal command via your vocal chords. Some overall system stabilization is to be expected. The first time you execute the command you can expect a stunned atmosphere in your household. There are documented cases where using that command a second time can result in inanimate objects being launched at you or high levels of undesirable periphery noise.
1) If your standards for comparison are the sounds heard when 6-8 rows back from the conductor at a symphony concert, then whether an amp has 250, 500, 2000 w/channel are an essentially irrelevant consideration... A system - including how the amp drives it - either "delivers", or it does not...2) The female portion of a household can have some strange ideas about the priorities surrounding an audio system... I took the flexible and pragmatic approach, declaring that since the wife's interest in cooking was similar to my interest in music, that I would allow her a completely free rein as to how she designed her kitchen requirements, but that I insisted that I would have total decision-making rights over arrangements for both the audio system and listening-room...
Where's the problem?...
... the "bullshit" analysis was purely injected to set the stage for the "thoughts" in what has obviously turned out to be a painfully unsuccessful attempt at humour...(sulks off to the fridge for another beer on a stiflingly hot evening)
to exporting a little of your "stiflingly hot evening" in our direction?...Our day has been decidedly cool, damp (lots of overnight rain), and windy, so we Brits could do with a little "shirt-sleeve" weather at present...
No wonder a frequent tea-break discussion topic in the UK appears to be planned holidays on sun-baked beaches, with a visual background of nicely bronzed bodies, etc...
On the other hand, I do believe that you have a somewhat rose-coloured viewpoint...As a counterpont to your visions of "sun-baked beaches" and "nicely bronzed bodies", please consider the following:
- South-Easterly winds that howl along the beaches turning the beautiful white beach-sand into a supersonic cloud of carborundum that scours you clean of all flesh
- Bronzed bodies that either weigh in excess of 20 stone or have more hair covering them than a mastodon of years gone by
- Sun-baked bodies, covered with lotions that - in combination with the heat - begin to roast the flesh and cause a stench of burning meat to permeate the seaside - drowning out the other attractions of rotting seaweed, seagull shit, fish corpses rotting in small pools, etc.
- Finally, picture yourself as but one of a milling herd of humanity, all blindly seeking the elusive nirvana created by over-fertile imaginations and that just does not, in reality, exist at all
From my perspective, I'll stick with my swimmin' hole and a nice lounger under a covered patio with a continuous stream of cold lagers to help assuage the effects of heat-stroke.
(end of semi-rant)
For my own part, I definitely avoid crowded beaches... I much prefer seeing them from afar (circa 400yds is often quite close enough) from the deck of a small boat... With sails, but no engine, there is usually enough peace and quiet to feed my soul, and the natural sail-driven speed of the boat gives a very satisfying feeling of being "tuned into" the elements...Naturally steering a boat is rather more pleasant when the hand guiding the tiller can feel pleasant sunshine on it, rather than "rheumatism-inducing" biting cold temperatures!...
PS: A Polish friend's wife last week-end announced that she was disgusted since I already had a better tan than she could manage when she was returning from holiday... I simply commented that somewhere along my blood-line there was propably a generous dose of "Gyppo" blood to account for the speed at which I obtained a tan...
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