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In Reply to: Re: Two things... posted by bjh on April 18, 2007 at 20:51:11:
because the Belts cant leave it at that. They claim to have significant technicale knowledge. They talk about having been in the business for 40 years and they claim to have done extensive research. Yet after forty years of research they seem to have ignored the scientific research on psychoacoustics. When presented with the mere possibility that the results of their tweeks are caused by bias effects they attack science and scientists. Here is a quote from May Belt about that."The dogmatic approach adopted by some engineers and scientists that a phenomenon can't be held to exist until it can be satisfactorily explained, is obviously unsound." Were the Belts simply saying, hey we have these tweeks and we don't know why they work and we don't know that they are not the results of pure bias effects I'd agree that there is nothing dishonest or irresponsible going on here. but they represent themsleves as technically knowledgable and there products as well researched and they simply deny the validity of real scientific research in psychoacoustics.
Follow Ups:
Hi.Consumers don't & buy mostly based on vendors' presentation, genuine or not. This is the dilemma a consumer can end up in. It is hard to tell the real stuff from a vendor's tooting horn.
Maybe 30-days moneyback guarantee is the last resort a consumer can take failing to get convincing evidence on the vendors' claims.
c-J
PS: Another realworld example of the King's new dress - the vendor says it is there, but don't ask why because you are not good enough to understand why.
Why do some people find the color green to be calming when it cannot be scientifically proven to be calming? I know a couple of `philes who are Belt enthusiasts. Not just fans, but real enthusiasts. If it works for them, fine. Personally, I believe I have much better ways to spend my money, but to each his or her own.I have simply reached the point where if somebody tells me their system sounds better when they wear a Big Bird costume, or maybe even use the skeletal remains of chickens as isolation devices, my thoughts are basically "Good for you". Then I go on about my business.
But that's just me.
My paradigm atoms sound better to me than any wilson speaker Ive ever heard! (Oh would that it were true!)
"I have simply reached the point where if somebody tells me their system sounds better when they wear a Big Bird costume, or maybe even use the skeletal remains of chickens as isolation devices, my thoughts are basically "Good for you". Then I go on about my business."Not only am I all for that, I am one of those people who will base my purchases on sighted evaluations. My theory is simple. Yes bias affects permiate our perceptions. Yes one can eliminate *certain* biases under blind conditions. In the end when we all sit down to listen for pleasure however, we are listening under sighted conditions and biases are once again in play. Personally I like auditioning things blind and sighted. It gives me a chance to try to eliminate sighted biases and live with them both. In the ned what I like is what is better...for me. That is what counts. People who think bias effects don't matter are fooling themselves and people who think that DBTs will save them from bias effects are also fooling themselves. I am at peace with the uncertanty of my aesthetic perceptions. I enjoy them just the same.
OTOH. Snake oils salesmen are not OK with me. When manufatcurers knowingly or irresponsibly misrepresent their products I have a problem with that. Claims of research that never was done or done with no regard to research protocols, 10,000 dollar cables with "networks" that are nothing but an empty plastic box with cables running straight through them. Assertions that plainly and obviously are in violation of the laws of physics, etc Thses things are not acceptable IMO and manufacturers should be called on the carpet for this sort of nonsense.
you have put it in terms that you personally can deal with. Those who claim to hear a difference really believe they can, and neither you or I can disprove it. People spend money on psychics (in fact some Asian billionaire justleft his entire fortune to one), yet I would never do so. By the same token, I can't prove that these phychics haven't done anyone any good.The point is that once you come to understand people are going to spend their money on stuff you think is silly no matter what, it gets easier to deal with. And just a little bit beyond that, you'll find there is actually some humor there. (I am an equal opportunity inmate, so I'll qualify that by saying I cannot prove who the joke is really on.....yet.)
> > you have put it in terms that you personally can deal with. Those who claim to hear a difference really believe they can, < <I deliberately used a term that is associated with deceptive practices.Those who claim to hear differences are not necessarily dealing with snake oil.
> > and neither you or I can disprove it. < <
It can be proven to a reasonable dgree one way or the other.
> > People spend money on psychics (in fact some Asian billionaire justleft his entire fortune to one), yet I would never do so. By the same token, I can't prove that these phychics haven't done anyone any good. < <
of course not since good and bad are subjective terms here.
> > The point is that once you come to understand people are going to spend their money on stuff you think is silly no matter what, it gets easier to deal with. < <I don't have a problem with how people spend their money. I do have issues with how people advertise and represent their products though.
> > And just a little bit beyond that, you'll find there is actually some humor there. (I am an equal opportunity inmate, so I'll qualify that by saying I cannot prove who the joke is really on.....yet.) < <
It's on anyone who gets too worked up over being right
But I'm still not spending my money on any "stupid stuff". ;~)
It just doesn't work very well for the snake.
"Those who claim to hear a difference really believe they can, and neither you or I can disprove it."MRI scan during listening with and without said tweak? PET scan. We can look directly at brain activity.
...nobody ever DOES anything like this, they TALK about doing something, but they don't ever DO anything.
It is becoming infuriating I tell you.
a
Belt devotees? "Allow me to repeat myself twice" then! ;~)
a
nt
Hey Clark, did I tell you that I have a picture of you in my freezer? I tried to take it out but couldn't find it next to the red herring!
s
Still waiting for that useful post, Clark. The meter is running.
Why not try with a helpful explanation of why you think placebo effect doesn't work all the time, Clark? Instead you pick up on the one phrase that you can pick a bone of contention with and make a useless post. Again.
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