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74.236.27.75
and not just from this forum, but from the whole site, from Agon, from our whole nutty high end hobby.
Haven't we been looked on as nuts and crazies enough by our spouses, friends and coworkers, as we strugle to explane fat cables, little spikes and maple woods.Are we going to let these charlatans make a bigger mockery of the High End with clocks, rocks and pretty wall plates.
Lets all make a stand and show them that we may be nuts, but not fools, before they offer the level 1 upgrades.
Follow Ups:
I didn't say ban them, I suggested moving them from the General Asylum to a more appropriate forum. Tweaks is where they moved them.I have no problem with constructive debating about various tweaks, technical design basis notwithstanding. I think we can all do with a more civil tone around here and less taking cheap shots from the hip.
Best regards,
Tweaks is where they moved them.
Only until they dumped them in PropHeads.
*sigh*
se
I agree....PropHeads should be for the technically-inclined, and not degenerate into the pissing match of the week.I'm going to contact Rod and request a new forum, called Hoopleheads.
This new forum will be utilized for any post, poster, or member of the Flat Earth Society that criticizes or besmirches any product and/or design whereby the poster hasn't tried or experienced the product first-hand. I further nominate Al Swearingen for Sergeant-at-Arms.People with actual experience are free to post on Tweaker's Asylum, for which these experiences are intended.
but I also have photographs of myself in the freezer. How long's it take to thaw 'em out?
Although (as a besmircher) I believe you can sometimes 'tell by looking'--ie reading the ads--that a product is not going to make a difference, at the same time, I remember the same being said about cables, turntables and amps (to name a few)--which items, for most of us, do have differences that are audible. My oh my, how difficult it is (for me) to rely on common sense!
Thanks, Tom. I still remember a lesson from my brilliant philosophy professor so many years ago. He stated...."There is common sense. And then there is good sense."Makes all the difference in the world. The en masse "common" sense sometimes displayed on these forums reminds me too often of the torch-lit mob scene in Frankenstein, the villagers ready to kill based on fear and rumor.
So, let's have your constructive discussion, Brian, not this silly posturing.Cheers - your friend, Geoff
...keeps me from posting about controversial tweaks on this forum. I will respond however if someone mentions a topic that I have some input to share.I agree with you about the clutter, but personally would prefer for the clutter to remain over at General Asylum. In spite of how useless it appears at times, I would not want to see the discussion stifled.
Regarding Machina Dynamica tweaks, how do you define debatable value? I feel you are inappropriately giving them, and Geoff Kait, short shrift.
Oh no I am waxing poetic. Time to do something else.
> > > > I learned so much from just playing with foams, rollers, weights, spikes, cones, ply, MDF, perspex, aluminium. sand, spage-gel, innertubes, and a hundred other handy household items, few of which cost much, even if overall I spent a bit. But I emerged with enough knowledge to be able to bet reasonably safely on which commercial products would work best in my system and for my ears. < < < <Well said dave c. It is obvious at which part you have reached in the 'level of awareness' league.
Let me ask you a few simple questions. Regarding the 'hundreds of items you tried', did any of them makes changes to the sound which you could not explain from within conventional electronic or acoustic theories ? That is - the changes you heard could not be explained by 'what you had done' having an effect on the audio signal going through the audio equipment or by 'what you had done' affecting the acoustic air pressure waves in the listening environment ?
Supposing you manufactured audio equipment and the changes you heard gave improvements in the 'sound', would you tell anyone ? Would you tell people - many of them your customers - knowing that you would be 'howled down' by the rest of the audio industry or would you keep silent - out of fear of being ridiculed ? If you did tell people, and actually demonstrated the effects to such as audio journalists, what would these audio journalists do with the knowledge ? Would the journalists inform people of how to achieve similar improvements in their sound - knowing that they would get a 'mauling' from the rest of the audio industry or would they keep silent - out of fear of being ridiculed ?Over 25 years ago I remember Ivor Teifenbrum facing such a dilemma. He decided to speak out. I remember him, at a UK Audio Fair, demonstrating to a room full of people, many of them audio journalists, how he could make the sound worse or better - depending on what he did to the hotel room telephone !! At one point, he had the people in the room cringing at the sound - because of something he did to the telephone. BUT, they were cringing at the sound of the Linn turntable, arm, cartridge, Naim amplifiers and Linn speakers !! In other words - the 'sound' (better or worse) of the Linn turntable, arm, cartridge, Naim amplifiers and Linn speakers was completely at the mercy of what Ivor was doing (or not doing) to the hotel room telephone !!! I am sure John Atkinson would be only too pleased to give you a fuller description of this event - which was one of Ivor's attempts to introduce the concept of 'single speaker demonstration rooms'.
I wonder, in this current climate of attack and ridicule, which journalists would now have the courage to report that a telephone, in the listening environment, can have an adverse effect on the sound or which editor of an audio magazine would now have the courage to print such a report ?
So, dave c, when you know what you personally have experienced trying so many things, then it must be as baffling to you as it is to me that so many people who regard themselves as 'audiophiles' have, obviously, not had similar experiences to the ones you have had. One has to ask the question "Why not ?"
Regards,
May Belt.
May,
I ask you to consider that our senses are easily fooled. They say “seeing is believing” yet an eye witness is considered an unreliable form of evidence in a court room. By the same token, if we say “hearing is believing” can we call that proper evidence?It seems to me that anytime someone is asked to take someone’s word for an entirely “subjective experience” we are going to have a problem. If someone who sells a product offers an explanation, no matter how far fetched it seems, then it should be possible to devise a method of measuring. In the case of your product(s) perhaps it would be possible to detect subtle changes in things like heart rate, adrenaline levels, or something along that line. If something in the environment is causing us to experience fear or a feeling of discomfort our body will have measurable changes in vital signs and changes in “chemistry”.
I read the review which you had linked to in the prop head forum. I am sure many would outright dismiss your product. Personally I was intrigued and don’t find your claims far fetched and entirely possible. Do you still offer samples? If so I would be very curious to give it a try. I have a few audio friends that I get together with on a regular basis and think it would be very interesting to see the results of an informal test.
I feel that everything in audio makes a difference. But having a limited budget I have to pick and choose. I build my own stuff and learned that for me circuit design is far and away more important than fancy parts and cables. But I am open minded enough to know that mankind lacks the answers to a great many things and when confronted with this, typically chooses to pretend things don’t exist. Uri Geller anyone?
Russ
Thank you Russ for your courteous response. Obviously we have considered that it could be our senses being 'fooled'. I have always said that that is one of the FIRST things which an intelligent person would consider !!And, yes, wouldn't it be nice if there could be some sort of measurement to confirm our concept that it is the human being who is doing the reacting (to what is going on in their environment) and then that reaction is what is 'having an effect on the sound' !! Some people do not realise (or could it be do not want to realise) that 'sound' is really the final information received by the working memory, which it then tries to identify and create a 'sound picture' to present to the brain. And, if there are no 'tests' i.e as you list "subtle changes in things like heart rate, adrenaline levels, or something along that line" then what does one do - keep silent ? I have always understood science and scientists to be about 'teasing out what Nature does and how Nature does it' and, to that end, if nothing else, at least sharing information.
The best parallel I can think of is Tinnitus. If someone in the same room as you describes hearing constant noises or buzzing in their ears (sometimes horrendously so) and you look around and can hear nothing, all is quiet, what do you do ? Believe the person or dismiss what they are saying as their 'imagination' ? To turn your question back on you "Would YOU call what they are describing as 'proper evidence'? "
If that person goes to see a Doctor and describes hearing constant noises or buzzing in their ears, what does the Doctor do ? Believe that person or dismiss what they are saying as 'imagination' ? When the doctor has done all the tests - taken the heart beat, taken the temperature, taken the blood pressure reading, looked at the tongue, looked at the white of the eyes, taken blood samples and urine samples and everything looks perfectly normal, what is the Doctor to do ? Thankfully, even before the condition was more understood, some of the early medical practitioners recorded people's descriptions and so, again, thankfully, knowledge was accumulated over the centuries so the condition can now be better identified (even if no adequate solution has yet been found). I can't help feeling however that during the Dark Ages, some of the people suffering from Tinnitus might have been burnt at the stake, accused of being inhabited by evil spirits !!Yes, we supply a free of charge sample of Rainbow Foil to enable people to try it for themselves. Over the years we have also described various Tweaks for people to do their own experiments. I would suggest you read Greg Weaver's three articles listed below for further background.
* Greg Weaver's April 1999 Rainbow Foil review in SoundStage
* Greg Weaver's July 1999 Cream Electret review in SoundStage
* Greg Weaver's December 1999 article on Freezing in SoundStage.
Regards,
May Belt.
I did read the reviews (unless these are different ones) which is how I came to know about your product. I will look them up again as I don't remember where I need to send the email to (or you could simply tell me:). I look forward to giving them a try. Too bad I am mainly a vinyl guy as I understand the differences are more apparent on digital.Truthfully digital has always bothered me in ways that seem to be beyond the limits of my hearing. At first I just thought I was getting too old to appreciate listening to music (but loved listening to live music in my home). It wasn't until I got back into vinyl that I understood the nature of the problem. Tubes have a somewhat similar but less pronounced effect. Interesting, or perhaps telling, that all of these are older technologies.
Just as once upon a time tinnitus was not understood and perhaps likely to be dismissed times have changed and we now understand it better. I have hopes that we are getting closer to understanding the seemingly simple job of the playback of recorded music.
I think there are many aspects of so called modern civilized life that create great levels of harmful stress. I know I could reach levels of relaxation in my boat (when I had one) ten or twenty miles out in the ocean that I can never experience in town!
Russ
P.S. I was not implying that your senses were being fooled. Instead I was trying to point out that people will always be skeptical when the only evidence is what someone else claimed to hear.
> > > > I don't remember where I need to send the email to (or you could simply tell me:). < < <Sorry to read Russ that you could not remember which link to use to request a free of charge sample of Rainbow Foil.
The link can be accessed via our home page www.belt.demon.co.uk
Or if you send your full postal address to the e-mail address below, we will send you a sample.
foil@belt.demon.co.ukRegards,
May Belt.
No sin, but don't flaunt it :-)
that's why this place is hear. Maybe instead question why the narrow-minded, NON USERS of certain audio devices/equipment get free reign to denigrate, attempt to embarass, and otherwise ridicule posters that report THEIR findings/experiences. We don't need to discuss the inherent character flaws that would lead to such assine behavior from many of the NON USERS either...If you have peer pressure problems from non audiophiles/audio enthusiasts, that's a different problem/subject.
BTW: Brian never advocated banning anything, just moving them to more "appropriate" locations.
If you see a subject post that may bother/annoy you, just... pass it on by. It's not like there's any lack of fascinating, informative or even
plain old entertaining reading hear at AA!
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
nt
so what difference does it make what you call it. Call it whatever makes your PC sensitive self feel better.
Remove, replace, relocate, block, dump, whatever.
N/T
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
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