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Many of our local home centers wont stock quality plywoods because folks dont buy they go straight to the cheap delaminating chinese plywoods.The china ply laminations are very uneven, board itself are not the same thickness, laminations like to pull apart, stuffs junk but I bet many of you dont even know you purchased it if you look at the laminations lots of voids doubled lams so you get uneven surface.I have to special order plywoods I buy in bulk so not a problem for me.Tried finding hiquality US produced plywoods but I cant find any.Whats up with that?
Follow Ups:
FWIW, I posted this on other forums before but it might interest you....
- http://www.internationalpaper.com/PDF/PDFs_for_IPWood/IP_CompCorePlyBrochure.pdf (Open in New Window)
Entire industries have closed down across North America.
You people are so obsessed with 'Lowest' price that Only 3rd world producers can generate the products you want at the pricings you Demand.
So no whining about the Crap quality.. or that "Fred" .. your neighbour, who likely once worked Locally in a Mill making Decent product is now working MacJobs for minumum wages.
Sow and Reap.
I have been looking for quality US sourced plywoods and yes I have found some good US hardwood plys but not birch I always pay much more for such ply over cheap imports but you do get what you paid for.I posted this to warn others who dont know the ply they buy is from china.So maybe the you people post isnt proper.And as far as I know fredj just builds TTs now never worked in the lumber industry ask him if you dont believe me.I do agree many folks just shop for price quality be damned I find this crazy but what can ya do...
more directed at this whole Global market Horseshit.
Entire Industries eliminated.. aided and abetted by politicians who offer Tax incentives to firms who outsource.. Clever Lads.. unemploying entire comunities, their local constituents, so they can get increased Election contributions.
These are the Final Days of Rome .. enjoy.. cuz for certain yr kids (or grandkids if that applies) will be having some difficulties finding Food in the not too distant future. they won't be worrying about the best sound out of their systems.
I think you can also put a lot of the blame on the Tree Huggers in the USA for crippling the wood industry. Some blame is due to the importing of cheaper wood from Canada that also has helped "Fred" lose his job in the USA. John
Actually, most of the forestry and lumber production in Canada is done by American companies. We like to complain about foreign companies raping the countryside and stealing our resources. Each to their own complaints, I guess.
In the USA, about 90% of the original (1600AD) forests have already been cut down.At some point, the people of the USA will need to stop logging their old forests. They can stop now. Or not. Perhaps you would suggest waiting until 95% of the original forests are hewn, then stop? Maybe wait until 98% of the forests have been cut down?
Whatever. The point is that the clearing of old forests has nearly run it's course, simply due to depletion. Industry in the USA will soon need to switch to using plantation timber or imports because they will soon have no forest timber left.
IMO, this is a pretty obvious point. When a resource is 90% depleted, it's time to stop relying on that resource.
"Tree Huggers" are not crippling the US wood industry. Canadian timber merchants are not crippling the US wood industry. Depletion is crippling the US wood industry. It just feels better when you find someone else to blame.
nt
90%?Let's see you back that up with even one fact.
Stick the search "USA deforestation" into Google. You can find your own facts.
Are 90% of North American Forests gone? No.Is there a trend in the past 20 years to re-forest? Yes.
Is a substantial portion of the timber that existed in 1650 gone? Yes. Especially East of the Appalachians. But a substantial amount also remains.
Just not enough to soothe those who would park their BMW's in front of their Wikiups.
Are these the same facts brought to us by the non existant global warming lunatics who say global warming is man made? Please tell me why surface temperatures on near by planets are also rising that are warmed by our sun? More accurately it is as scientists are now explaining that global warming is due to the solar cycles that seem to average 30 years of our own Sun. Reading this type of nonsense I think I will go cut down 10 old growth trees today on my own property. John
A documentary was produced recently in England that IMO lays waste to the notion that global warming is caused by mankind's activities. It is called "The Great Global Warming Swindle."
The YouTube link I posted no longer works. The Google link is still working... for now.
Hi GuysSteve, ya better send that link to the White House, I heard George W. Bush himself saying "...global warming is real...". Maybe it was just an actor imitating his voice on NPR (would'nt put it past those tree huggers!). Of the some 200 or so scientific papers addressing global warming published in scientific journals which were subject to peer review, none supported the case that it did not exist. However, in the popular media (i.e. magazine and newspaper articles and op-eds) about half supported the idea that global warming does not exist. Most of these contra global warming articles were authored by people connected to the oil industry. What a coincidence. But let's forget all this political stuff, what about the price of freak'n plywood? Is it going down, staying nominally the same, or going up. I'm betting on the latter two.
John, if global (and planetary) warming follows a 30 year sun cycle, we should see evidence of a spike in the ocean temperatures circa 1977. The record of this should show up in arctic ice core samples. Any reports of this? The sun spot activity follows a well known 11 year cycle, and there have been many theories how these cycles cause turmoil on earth, stock market instability for one. But to get back on topic, what about the price of freak'n plywood?
Paul
Please.. George Bush couldn't find his dic* with both hands these days. He is too shell shocked from getting beaten up again over his failed amnesty plan for the 30 Million illegal aliens costing Americans something like 2 Trillion dollars. I digress the computer model they based their "theory" on Global Warming to be more than kind - was flawed. The vast majority of the idiots (insert scientists for the word idiots) crying the sky is falling screeching about Global Warming are taking grant money that funds their dubious and dare I say creative non peer reviewed and wholly unscientific research.See the link to discover just how little of the Earth's atmosphere is composed of carbon dioxide to begin with. It is what .04% at most? See the link below. There is no peer reviewed accredited proof that we created any problem. After all Volcano eruptions and forest fires combine for more than all the cars and factories in the world to putting carbon dioxide in the air. You want to get the tree huggers angry point them towards China who polluted one of the largest (formerly) potable water supplies in the world due to chemical spills. Europe's rivers are twice as contaminated as rivers are in the USA. Pick something out that man can fix. All the fuss over Global Warming is just the rest of the world teaming up to figure out how to tax Americans. Of all the lunacy I have had the pleasure of reading the people in the UK having to pay a $20 Euro fee carbon tax to bbq or grill food on their charcoal grills. Those people have WAY too much time on their hands inventing ways to tax Americans. Let us not forget the on-going struggle at the UN as it tries to gain control of the Internet for the sole purpose of redistributing the wealth. Too bad the Europeans who so desperately want to control the Internet are not creative enough to create their own Internet system? Me, well I would rather worry about where the missing 115 Russian small man portable suitcase tactical nukes are at this moment in time that just vanished not too many years ago. Now that is something worthy of worry keeping you up at night drinking heavily.
"Carbon dioxide makes up just 0.04% of the entire atmosphere, and most of that -- at least 95% -- is naturally occurring (decaying plants, forest fires, volcanoes, releases from the oceans).
At most, 5% of the carbon dioxide in the air comes from human sources such as power plants, cars, oilsands, etc."
Here is a link to something the Global Warming shrill doomsday scenario shouters should have a reason to worry. Lets all let the Tree Huggers fix the problems they created and can take full blame for when the Democrats were in control of both Houses of Congress with John Kerry championing the bill passage that forced MBTE to be added to all gasoline sold in the USA. Ground water contaminated by MBTE is harming up to 40 million people in the USA. Again to be perfectly clear we all can take a moment to thank a Democratic Congress and John Kerry for that bill forcing this vile substance into the gas for our cars for a few more mpg per tank of gas. To make it even better they knew exactly how dangerous this crap was before the first batch was put in the first gas tank of our cars around 1984. Ask the 40 Million Americans today drinking and showering in this vile contaminated water which problem real or fictional that they should really be worried about? Of course they can spend trillions of dollars on research to stop all volcanic eruptions in the world both above and below sea level if they want to control global warming. After all that .04% of carbon dioxide in our air is..................nothing to worry about at the end of the day.
"There were voices within the oil industry that warned against the use of MTBE, on grounds both of public health and cleanup costs from the inevitable leaks. An April 1984 memo from an Exxon employee said:
"[W]e have ethical and environmental concerns that are not too well defined at this point; e.g., (1) possible leakage of [storage] tanks into underground water systems of a gasoline component that is soluble in water to a much greater extent [than other chemicals], (2) potential necessity of treating water bottoms as a 'hazardous waste,' [and] (3) delivery of a fuel to our customers that potentially provides poorer fuel economy.... " (Emphasis added.) (Click for document)
The memo was ignored by the employee's superiors.
The record is clear. Individual oil companies, and the industry as a whole, knew that adding MTBE to gasoline posed a serious threat to water supplies everywhere it was used. With full knowledge of the danger - but also of the profit they stood to make - they lobbied hard for the use of MTBE, then withheld or covered up evidence of its environmental and health risks.
Now that their own words and documents have surfaced to prove their culpability, oil companies offer one demonstrably false defense: "The government made us do it." And they are looking to Republican leaders to use the energy bill to protect them-instead of protecting water suppliers and consumers-from having to pay billions in cleanup costs for MTBE contamination in tap water."
read this story in the two links below if you want to worry about something folks. MTBE is a real problem unlike the Global Warming hot air. I disagree with the premise or the excuse in that article that Congress is not to blame for MBTE. It was the mandate of laws passed by Congress that initiated that this crap go in the gas. The sad truth is that too many legislators freely admit they sign bills they have not bothered to read. Now they are trying to turn it around and put the blame on Republicans for shielding the oil industry from future law suits. This just shows how Americans get reemed when Big Brother passes laws to look out for "us." John
http://www.ewg.org/issues/mtbe/20031001/report.php
JohnMaybe I'm a little slow on the up-take. It took me to the end of Lorne Gunter's article to realize that it was supposed to be humorous. This guy's funny: "Water vapour is the most abundant greenhouse gas, yet scientists will admit they understand very little about its impact on global warming". This funny non-sequiter would imply that scientists don't understand the global effects of clouds on the weather, but Mr. Gunter does. He then goes on to describe his speculative theory of how water vapor functions in the planetary scheme "(it may actually help cool the planet: As the earth heats up, water vapour may form into more clouds and reflect solar radiation before it reaches the surface. Maybe. We don't know.". Naw, really? The scientists Gunter is satirizing must have been home schooled with 19th century texts.
As to the computer models siming global warming having been flawed, computer models are only as accurate as the information you feed into them. Carbon dioxide levels can be accurately measured way back through pre- historic times using arctic ice core samples. Now you're way ahead of me in seeing tree hugger grant money behind these studies, and a possible green thumb on the scales.
Now for the U.N. trying to gain control of the internet to redistribute the wealth. You'll have to elaborate on this, the current U.N. is about as effective as a fart in a windstorm. You must mean some potential super U.N. of the future, like the Empire in Star Wars?
I wish you would have put the" man portable nukes" stuff before the UN joke. I can see a man portable dirty bomb though. The last time we saw a hydrogen bomb (after a 60's plane crash) they were about the size of a naval torpedo. Anyone who could lift one of these, not to mention carry it, would be a force to reckon with in their own right.
Now that MBTE stuff looks like a cause that both liberals and conservatives can get behind. You mention trillions spent on research to stop volcanic eruptions, but I can't tell once again if you're yanking my chain or not. I'll bite: how will they do it? Either stop the volcanos or get the trillions will be good..
Someone needs to correlate all this with the price of plywood. I'm betting on a bull plywood market, so build your horns now guys!. Anyone wanna take bear?
Paul
You said, "Someone needs to correlate all this with the price of plywood. I'm betting on a bull plywood market, so build your horns now guys!. Anyone wanna take bear?"Actually I posted after you tossed out a post with some political comments mixed in. I figured this is simply giving the other side a voice. In this case it is the real verifiable Science itself that has proven the Global Warming Alarmists are all full of hot air only.
Actually the 100 plus missing suitcase nukes only weigh around 100 pounds each. That is easily portable. They were basically designed for small two man teams to deliver. The Russians made these to level the field when America designed the first man portable tactical nukes around 1965. I have to wonder how Russia "lost" something like 110 of these things? You lose car keys, or your wallet. Not 100 portable nukes.. That is far more dangerous to me than the false global warming fairy tales.
You said, "Now for the U.N. trying to gain control of the internet to redistribute the wealth. You'll have to elaborate on this, the current U.N. is about as effective as a fart in a windstorm. You must mean some potential super U.N. of the future, like the Empire in Star Wars?"
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8CUKA481&show_article=1
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0916/p08s02-comv.html
http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2005/10/17/dont_give_un_control_over_internet/
Snip; (whole articles below in links) "It claimed to be the opinion of 2,500 leading scientists, but Prof Reiter said it included names of scientists who disagreed with the findings and resigned from the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and said the report was finalised by Government appointees.
The CO2 theory is further undermined by claims that billions of pounds is being provided by governments to fund greenhouse effect research, so thousands of scientists know their job depends on the theory continuing to be seen as fact."
http://www.lse.co.uk/ShowStory.asp?story=CZ434669U&news_headline=global_warming_is_lies_claims_documentary
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html
http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p357.htm
The last link above is the website with 17,000 plus scientists with over 2/3 of them having earned advanced degrees in the field of Science. They have all signed the petition about the global warming lies. I have a lowly Bachelor of Science degree myself. For the Global Warming fanatics to cry the sky is falling is nuts. To get their papers into any accredited peer review science journal their experiments must be repeatable in real world testing experiments in order to validate their claims. Even the just released UN report warns their yet to be released upcoming study has failed to meet this criteria. For me whenever I read a story like "The Sun is Dimming or a Global Warming" story run in a UK newspaper I just have to roll my eyes. These types of stories always seem to originate in the UK and/or Scotland sadly.
As for my favorite flavor of wood lets make it the good stuff please. Nothing but the rarest old growth will due for me for my first generation of 16 ohm Altec Duplex speakers. John
JohnJust yesterday I heard on the radio (NPR again) that Newt Gingrich has announced that global warming is real! First Dubya, now Newt. They are obviously trying to discredit global warming by lending their support. I'm in a quandry now, and about ready to throw in with you. Perhaps if we tone down the "lie" angle, it might provide for a more reasonable discourse. Some of the more responible links you provided approached it like this.
The man sized nukes seem to have grown to two-man size. I'm still more afraid of dirty bombs though. Well ya pick your phobias and take your chances.
The U.N. doesn't quite come off as the bolsheviks in the links you provided, as your "redistribute the wealth" comment would indicate. I think it's more like "grab a piece of the action". The CS Monitor article ended with this: "Better that the U.S. engage vigorously now in shaping that institution, even as it realizes that handing off control to it is nowhere in the immediate future". Well ya pick your phobias...
I see you have bowed out of the plywood debate by your choice of cabinet wood. Old growth wood is readily available as recycled from demolished timber framed barns. So you don't have to sneak a chainsaw into Yellowstone.
Paul
I an also not sure how this has anything to do with plywood. I thought that Birch was not an old growth wood. Am I wrong?Dave
Hi DaveThanks for your suggestion for a course correction for this dreadnaught. As to birch being an old growth wood, it all depends on the supply versus demand. If the demand gets high enough, I'm sure they'll cut up the Spruce Goose with chain saws (it's actually made mostly out of birch plywood). Now I see you capitalized the word "Birch" in your post. Perhaps you meant the John Birch Society, and you are certainly not wrong that this is "old growth wood" to say the least (figuratively speaking of course). Birch is a funny wood (capital B because it begins a sentence here), it can look just like like maple and be nearly as hard as the some varieties, it can also look mahogany with a suitable stain depending on the grain. So where are you at with plywood futures: bull or bear?
Paul
I was not referring to the John Birch Society but now that you mention it, I think I'll put on my "John Birch Society Blues" Dylan bootleg. I haven't listened to it in quite some time.Before anybody gets down on me for trafficking in bootlegs, I admit that I do have some bootlegs. However, evey one I have was bought for a $1 each, from cutout bins, in Philadelphia in the 70's. The profiteers never got my money, only Soul Shacks in North Philly.
With regard to the wood birch, I suspect the futures are good. Even if the masse of lemmings want cheap there will always be the select few who want quality (but I have never invested in the futures market).
Have a good weekend!
Dave
the notion that 'environmentalists' destroyed lumber is a pretty crazy idea.. when an industry doesn't look after it's main resource into the future, it's on a slippery slope to begin with.. note the lack of dodo eggs, for instance, or maybe harp seal furs, tortoiseshell, ivory, and brazilian rosewood.the only thing crippled is the logic corporations and profiteers use to justify untenable methodological positions. and last i checked, the canadians have a lot more wood to export due to a significant amount of 'unused' forest land, and fewer people, which could explain lower costs due to a bigger supply..
jeez is right..
d
Really? That recent huge fire on the Left Coast in the USA was 100% due to tree huggers not even allowing fallen dead wood to be removed for forest fire prevention safety. The Forrest Fire fighting firemen who burned alive in another huge blaze were killed because they would not allow water dumping planes to scoop up water to refill their tanks due to panic over some obscure threat to a fish species in a protected close by river. BTW, How many Dodo bird eggs are in the USA? If I find a live Dodo Bird in the woods 50 feet from my home I will shoot it, marinate it, and grill it up my evil wood charcoal burning ceramic BBQ grill. If I find some live Dodo eggs in their nest its omelet time. Did you know the crazies in the UK now make people pay $20 to the socialists just to use their evil charcoal grills to cook a steak or grill up anything? If they do not pay in advance to use their grills the fine from Big Brother the socialist is now $50. How typical of the land that gave us headline news over the years like "The sun is dimming, global warming, polar caps melting, global cooling, ice age beginning again (then ending)" and so much more false news. Excuse me but didn't the Nazi's come to power also spewing promises about protecting the environment? We all know how that ended don't we? Of course we all know what happened next after the Nazi's banned private all private gun ownership don't we? After all I need my gun to kill the Dodo bird, wood from real trees burned down to wood charcoal to fuel my carbon burning BBQ grill to cook it on right? John
some sanity around this place.Thanks for the post.
not too much interest in reactionary politics- but good luck with your dodo barbecue and blaming any politics left of center for any problem the united states may encounter. it's not my society-- i just watch it, left and right, with a whole lotta disbelief in BOTH ends of the political spectrum.theres a whole lotta stupid on every side of any political argument-- whether it be far right or far left or even far center- best attribute such stupid to forces larger than political ideologies, cause i guarantee you that there's bigger endangered fish (or birds) to fry- it's better to take care of the home place and community for me-- that's scale that makes sense, and actually has some REAL meaning, AND i have the means to do something about. john birch and socialist worker spend too much time arguing and not enough time looking after their kids and fencerows..
I don't believe that the clowns on the left or the right are smart enough to pull off the massive conspiracies that they accuse each other of. Maybe if we channeled that brain power used to come up with these conspiracy theories, towards fixing our problems...Baltic birch does make a nice sounding speaker cabinet!
Dave
Do you really think tree huggers have that much power?
Geez
It's the only thing I use. Chinese and U.S. (for the last
30 years or so) plys are pure S**t. Sorry, but it's what I see.
What a sad state of affairs...-T.M.
Sad for you that you are unaware of the realities of what most U.S. plywood is made for: construction. Just visit the American Plywood Associaton site and you will see that. American furniture has always been long on solid wood unlike in Europe where, since WW II, plywood furniture with exposed end plies has been the norm.Baltic Birch and its variants are peculiarily European just like the 32mm cabinet system which stem from the shortage of hardwood and the need to quickly re-build after WW II.
There is very high quality hardwood plywood available in the U.S. but it is little known to consumers because of availability only through wholesalers that cater to the cabinet and furniture building trade and its relatively high (to construction grade) cost.
To say that all U.S. plywood is poor quality is an uninformed opinion.
"...In research as in life one is far more likely to find what one looks for than what one neglects."
-The Modern Researcher; Jacques Barzun & Henry Graff
Harcourt Brace Jovanovitch, Inc. third edition 1977
nonsustainably and difficult to find does not strike me as anything
to be proud of or to celebrate --you can keep it.Furthermore, using so much ply for concrete forms is generally a
wasteful practice which squanders finite resources, and so that's
little excuse either.I'll take the solid, qualiy, affordable, sustainably harvested/farmed
option, thank you --Baltic birch ply.So, where is the ignorance???
-T.M.
"nonsustainably and difficult to find"The hardwood plywood I'm referring to is mainly Oak, Walnut and Birch which the U.S. has in abundance and available by the trainload from Weyerhauser and Georgia-Pacific among others.
"Furthermore, using so much ply for concrete forms is generally a
wasteful practice which squanders finite resources, and so that's
little excuse either."Almost no one uses other than metal forms for pouring concrete. Of course, you're reaching there because you well know I was referring to construction grade manufactured wood as sheathing, structural and underlayment. All uses that preserve resources and lower costs.
"I'll take the solid, qualiy, affordable, sustainably harvested/farmed option, thank you ..."
So will we. That's why millions of acres are planted with conifers every year and "old growth" hardwood trees are harvested under strict controls. No "old growth" forest owner, including the Interior Department wants to see this resource depleted.
"I'll take ... sustainably harvested/farmed
option, thank you --Baltic birch ply."So will I, when building speakers, as I already pointed out. But being an ideologue, you never miss a chance to get on your anti-American Soapbox.
You're absolutely right on. Here in the Pacific Northwest logging is a major industry that my family has been involved with for well over a hundred years. It was known by the start of the 20th century that the forests couldn't be indefinitely logged without being replanted. It was in the major logging companies best interests to see that replacement (replanting) take place as they were in it for the long run. The small outfits and gippo's didn't have the interest nor the ability to pursue this. All this took place without European style Socialism and the Big-Brother Paternalism that the so-called liberal elements find so attractive today. There have been many instances in the logging industry where quick profits have been bypassed in an effort to do what would be best for all concerned, including the workers (Marx got that wrong as well!). While the stories of robber barons makes for a great stereotype, and there were a few, the majority of companies were run by honest, hardworking people that weren't too good to get in and share the work (and the dangers) out in the woods.Best Regards,
TerryO
You can easily make out the Russian-like type on the pallet sides.No doubt the Chinese ply I've encountered is junk. Most of the domestic products are too.
Appleply® or Europly® are good products and pretty consistent. You may have to look into doing your own panel lay-up, as in making your own veneer panels. It is not that difficult with the right equipment and it will give you more possibilities too.
I have a Vacu-Press Hi-Flo industrial system with a manifold that allows me to run 3 different bags at once. I seldom need that capacity, but when I do it sure is nice to have.
eso
The 1" with maple faces cost me about $80.
So far I dont have any problems for I bulk order.But many DIY types I know show me the cabs they proudly built. And I see the cheap china ply with its many voids and delaminations.
(are you mainly talking 7 - or 13 plys?)a lot is junk, but for those with low (~$5-7/hour not uncommon including degree holders) incomes this stuff might be only choice for diy. It was a bad sign years back to see heavy particleboard shipped all the way from China. They can make great stuff - but some of those crappy tools aren't fit for a sandbox. At least the crummy computers kinda work.
got any tips on keeping delamination chances down?
both types I have not had any trouble with baltic or other plys delaminating. I tried to reglue clamped a delaminating ply but it didnt work so well.So I stear clear of it.
Also, I understand that the standard (in U.S.) thicknesses are being reduced by 1/32" on the imported plywood.Gary
Vinyl and Film Forever
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