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In Reply to: Mud posted by Tom Brennan on March 29, 2007 at 03:41:58:
"If you don't like Metal Elvis Vinnie you're WAY to refined."Tom, i really appreciated MEV's show on the tube - thanks!
though i admit not having the sound on the PC.Ok always a bit the same with you...
I think that you misunderstand why some people can
listen to these FR stuff. Let me try to help you.Not having xo in the 200-20KHz is gorgeous for some kind
of music though can be not relevant for others.
Also FR work also pretty well with valves.
That is why you will find people really liking these FR
and trying to play them with low powered set amps,
The credo is that the simpler the better.
To an extent it is true but as you may wisely
argue: everything is a trade-off!It seems that you listen mainly to loud stuff with SS amps
(beuuhhhh...) so I understand that you are miles away
from the FRangers.By the way, i have no pb playing loud if i use
the DEQX with xo at 200Hz. But i cannot get the
refinement of just a TVC passive.
Follow Ups:
"It seems that you listen mainly to loud stuff with SS amps"No, I have 5 hi-fis; 2 run on tubes, 1 on conventional SS and 2 on chip amps. And one uses Fostex FX-120s.
Vincent I am sorry I dont agree with you.
First of all most front horn systems are Xoverless from 500 or 800 hz to 20k..ish (say 18k) Lowthers mud everything from 2k up and get to 13k..ish even with no Xover, the whizzer comes in where the shout starts. Fostexes sound very nice and cohesive but with no true detail on top. On the other hand K horns go from 400hz, some 2" compression drivers can run from 320hz up(Edgar horn). the new Orphean goes from 250hz, and Phenolic drivers can go down to 200hz. Goto and Ale have compression drivers from 100hz to 10k. No paper driver come even close to a compression driver in clarity and dynamics IMHO.
Second, Horn systems deliver ALL the music at very low volume levels, I never heard my system at such low volumes without missing anyhing.
I had Lowthers on open bafle Bazzilla type for over 2 years, yes with 15 inch woofers (Altec 416) and Beyma super tweeters...soundstage was all over the place and I was missing a lot of music from the source. (I also got addicted to the shout and am in therapy as we speak). Horns soundstage is better because of limited early reflections, The Avantgarde room at RMAF had scary soundstage extending in front of the speakers to an inch from your nose...real spooky!
The efficiency of horns lets you use mainly just the first watt, at that level almost any amp is linear and works in class A, I am a tube fan but I am sure SS first watt is just as good.
Now if you want good bass (not bloated one note mini woofers) get a huge cabinet with a good 15 incher...crisp,clean, dynamic, authorative, deep bass...no subwoofer comes even close unluckily but real estate becomes an issue.
So yes, if you want to get serious and stop playing around, be a man and get front loaded horns.
Wow... This thread did heated up things *rubs hands*Now on a serious note.
First, the caveat repeated: As I stated above, I have no experience whatsoever with front loaded horns, and my exposure to back loaded is limited to a very brief listening session of a BLH featuring a Fostex FE168Z Sigma (zHorn Heruka to be more precise) on not exactly high end gear.
Getting back to topic: If my understanding is correct, the whole BLH design revolves around that horn loading works ONLY in the first 3, maybe 3.5 octaves i.e. under or around 200 Hz (give or take) and does very little (ideally nothing) above that.
So yes, you could say that they are "band aides". OTOH I am not aware of any truely full range driver, whatever the cost range. So yes, you need an enclosure that helps with the low end of things. Now, if it is possible to achieve that via horn loading (with or without the help of wall/corner loading) and NOT have the bass booming is a totally different story
(Side note: I'm not a bass freak by any means. I only need that as a fundament for my music and that's why I need that -- whatever is there -- is clean and fast. Better less but good quality than more of lesser quality).
When it comes to front loading I did take a look at Oris horns (especially attractive since it's readily avail here in Europe). However, since I have very little experience with DIY they look a bit daunting (and pricey for a first step).
So "being a man" and get front loaded might be too big as a first step towards high eff for me :)
Hello Florian, as a MAN who likes mainly Barroque music, compression drivers from 500 or 800hz up is the best for classical music given their clarity and dinamics, and yes bass need to be clean to avoid some boomy bass mudding everything...we are talking start with a 2 way horn system and you can grow form there to a 3 or 4 way horn system. At the moment I have midbass horn from 170hz to 1k, a compression driver from 800hz and a supertweeter real high at 18k and very padded down (careful with those supertweeters, they are almost as dangerous as subwoofers) and huge 300 lt cabinets with altec 416 for bass...
If you want to simplify things these could be a good choice:
http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/2_way.htmlAll the Best
Thanks, quite informative.I precise a bit, I do not have lowthers
but AERs -- without whizzer or phase plug.I heard front horns with DX3. I disliked the very small
sweet point they had and there was by the way a lot
of distorsion in the lows due to the horn itself.
Bass integration with low pass filter was just terrible
with a boomy bass (due in my view to the xo).
That said, there may be better horns...
This is why i am reluctant in trying front horns
(there is also a total lack of time to play with them).Anyway i may try affordable compression drivers
one day.
"so I understand that you are miles away
from the FRangers."Tom has heard that stuff many times. I was there.
Trying the big Altecs next the others is the best way to know.
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