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In Reply to: limited bass on Gallo Ref 3? + more posted by gd on March 27, 2007 at 09:49:08:
Greg,Thanks for the input. We are pretty much on the same page. That being said:
- I usually listen to concert hall levels -- which seems quite a bit higher then I've witnessed elsewhere. In my very simplistic mind an english horn, drum or (worse) a horn and "livingroom listening levels" are a contradiction. That's why I try to listen to a level that (I think) gives pianos/percution, brass, etc the "dynamic headroom" they need. And at those levels my Gallos really do sparkle. Moreover, my Supratek Chardonnay is really a chameleon that does wonders in that respect -- by controlling the gain of the preamp I can sink the volume and still get "realistic music" (*ahem*) comming out.
- Bass: I was tempted several times to power the second voice coil. Still, after reading all the reports and the very simple fact that it is still the same 10 incher we're talking about I'm not so sure about how much it will do to the _quality_ of the bass. Maybe it will add some slam, but at the price of some serious coloration (which you mention yourself). So, while I'm curious, I'm not holding my breath.
Again, bass is only a relatively small thing. What bothers me more is the efficiency that holds me moving into SET territory.- BLHs and hybrids: I'm with you all the way. BLHs have their drawbacks (there is no true full ranger); Hybrids seem to bust at the seams. Maybe there is a BLH that can get me there. Maybe smth like Prometheus (which uses a very customized Eminence 12 run full range, btw) that is better integrated. Who knows.
As I said -- unless someone comes with some suggestions -- I'm ready to take a first step with a Fostex BLH. And when I'll grow up (and ready to fork the money) a Prometheus :). Who knows...
Once again, many thanks for chiping in,
Florian
P.S. Duke: I never heard of John's speakers before but -- and I mean this with all due respect -- I am _very_, _very_ sceptic about forking 4 grant for a bottom ported enclosure for a Fostex 12 incher XOed to a tweeter smack bang in the middle of the presence region. I would at least build smth like Terry Cayin BiB (Bigger is Better) or some of the other similar designs floating around before even considering that...
Follow Ups:
If you want more efficiency, "performance" volume levels, and more bass than you get from the Gallo 10" woofer, then take Tom Brennan's advice, forget about fullrangers, and get yourself some compression drivers and 15" woofers. They are not too expensive, especially if you find some old stuff or prosound gear.I'd consider the Yorkville U215 unity series. Pretty spiffy and nicely priced around $3200 for a pair.
A very easy way to go would be a pair of 2" compression drivers such as the BMS coaxials or something by B&C. Pair them with some prosound horns -- you can get JBL 400hz horns for as little as $70. Or build one of the Acoustic Horn (Bill Woods) 300hz horn kits. Ask Dr. Edgar for some basshorn flatpack kits and ask a local woodworker to put them together if necessary. You could probably keep the total cost under $3000 and you'd have some kickass horns, that's for sure. Add a powered sub (Titan III kit from Parts Express $650 for example) to cover the lowest range.
There is something to be said for a plug-n-play solution, such as a classic Altec Valencia or a neighborhood Klipschorn or Cornwall from a garage sale.
I've had the original Ref 3s for a couple of years. Had the 4-ball-per-side Gallo Ultimates earlier (actually, using them in the back channels now because I can't face the prospect of shipping them). Despite the note above, the Ref 3s are MUCH better sounding than the original References, IMO.I've got mine on DIY stands from Stein Audio, raising them 6" off the ground and helping the bass substantially. But what really floored me was the effect of repositioning them. Toed in just a little (woofers facing out), the increased bass was amazing. BTW, I have the Gallo sub amp and recommend it. Between it and the toeing in, I have both tuneful bass and enough of it.
I'm driving them (except for the bottom octave, of course) with 12 wpc SET amps (845 output tubes and huge Magnequest trannies) in a really large room and have never felt a lack of oomph or authority. Good luck in your quest. Dave
Dave,Thanks for the tips.
I've spent a _lot_ (and I do mean A LOT) of time with positioning the Gallos and room treatment. As you can see in my room pics (check my profile) I prefer them with the woofers firing inwards, mostly because I felt that having them firing outwards lead to some lack of energy btw. the speakers. But I can think this is largely dependent on the room setup, so YMMV...
I've seen reports that raising them on stands does improve the bass. I will eventually get some plate amps and hook them to the second voice coil, eventually.
Still, as I mentioned above, my quest is mostly after a high eff speaker that basically retains the Gallos strength. While I've read reports about ppl using SETs with the Gallos I strongly doubt they can work with a 45 or 2A3 SET, or even a 300B one...
All in all, a dream come true would be (now) a Ref3 with bi-amping option...
I had been running mine with the woofers facing inward because I could not get the sound "right" the other way. Incidentally, they're 8' out from the rear wall and 5' out from the sides -- as I said, this is a big room, roughly 18 x 40' with a large "L" off one of the 40' sides.Anyway, some audiobuddies suggested positioning a pair of Room Tiunes I owned just outboard of the Ref 3s and parallel with them so that the woofers played slightly into them. This strengthened the soundstaging and focus and, I think, further helped the bass, in conjunction with the toeing-in.
One of these days I have to replace the existing photo in Inmate Systems so you can see what I'm talking about :-)
I grant that lower-powered SETs are not the ticket, but I know for a fact that some of the final pre-production testing of the Ref 3s was done with 10 wpc amps, solid state at that.
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