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In Reply to: Re: ELectro-Voice Empire sound better then Altec Valencia posted by Duboiz on March 4, 2007 at 02:25:41:
Duboiz, I didn’t mean to come out aggressive, do enjoy your EV, I enjoy them and I collect them.
I grew up listening to a pair of TRX12b, actually the Wolverine model LT12, I loved them and probably they are the reason I am into this terrible hobby, I still have them, I also have the TRX15 top model with the T25 horns and original Xovers, After living for a while with all these speakers I can tell you I think the LT12 are more balanced with nice mids, I never liked the "mid range" of a 15" driver, sounds dull, even with the whizzer thingy (another mistake IMHO). The TRX15 are very good speakers, yes the mids are not sparkling but sound good if you like a darker non aggressive sound, their best attribute is the great T350 tweeter, the highs are dynamic and extended (some of the best I heard). When combined with the T25 horns the higher range of the mids take off, with very nice tone and dynamics, but unluckily the T25 units have no detail and the highs are sssssing (probably the phenolic diaphragms are to blame here) but the huge concoction of TRX15 and T25 horns is spectacular and involving (I had the bigger cabinets 315 liter on these) my wife loves the sound but hates the size!!!
On the other hand I also have the Altec Valencia and yes I agree with you, "as is" they are not good the fabulous 806a doesnt go up to 20khz, maybe 16khz yes, so you would need a super tweeter, the legendary 416 woofers (sorry to say this) just dont go up to 800 hz convincingly, so yes you have the dull 15" midrange, and the cabinets are too small to get any bass under 40hz, so you have some of the best drivers in the world in a terrible product.
I used to have (sold them of course) top loader Hartsfield, IMHO the worst of the lot, the bass is not thompimg, its womping, no mids can get out of that complicated corner horn, and the bubble back 375 units must have been demagnetized because they were never convincing with anything but horn music, I checked the diaphragms, changed horns took the "bacon slicers" out which helped a bit but violins were never convincing and highs would go up to I guess 11khz. so the supertweeter had a big job to do. Lower mid range was inexistent.
Today I am listening to my Altec 416 in the huge 315 liter cabinets doing the best bass I heard (competing with coffin back Hartsfield at the RMAF) these go up to 250 hz, I got Fostex 207 in a sealed cabinet with my 806 horns on top doing the "Magic horn thingy" and a pair of Beyma cp21f from about 18khz. Big, Involving, Analytical, You Are There sound, my wife peeked in to see who of my friends was singing! I am waiting for some 180hz front horns for my Lowthers to cover up to 1k, haven’t got the nerve to cut out the whizzers yet!!!
So as a finished product EV is best yes, but you are missing on the real thing!
Follow Ups:
Hi, thank for your civil responf and very informative as I my say. I am in no war with Altec and found them to have their qualities if some areas. They can play loud with no strain and really shine in high volume and in a very, very large room or theatre.Remember that I compare my 1950 Empire to 1972 Valenicas both without any modifications. I hear quite often Altec fans modify their speakers by adding tweeters, changing crossovers or cabinets, dampening the horns etc, that's tell you that the original design is flaws somewhat otherwise they would not try to modify it. My Empire have all the original parts and had never updated. I never heard a modify Altec so I can comment on them, actually I only heard the Valenicas, both versions A & B. My EVs have the 15WB, T10 and T35 (Not B). I heard some say the 15WB is actually more musical to the beefier 15W but I don't have any experience with the later so I can't comment. I know however that the 15B is more efficient at the expense of distortion (didn't heard any though, so must be in very high volume) so they are better for low watt tube amps.
To make my post short is that plain vanilla EV sound better the same Altec (to me). Maybe with some improvement they will overpass the EV. If one day I will compare others I will update my thoughts. Cheers
I thought I'd toss in my .02 cents because I've had both EV and Altec. My EV Regencys had 15W's, T25'As with the early 8HD horns made from fiberglass, T-350 tweeters. The xovers were new DIY but followed the design of the originals. They sounded very good for sure. My Flamencos had a one note bass and no highs to speak of over around 9KHZ without HF EQ. They were not listenable to me without adding the T-350 tweeters but eventually I tired of the thumpy unnatural bass. Now with Altec Model 19's I have far better bass than with the Flamencos, the mids are controlled and smoothed because of the internal EQ in the xovers but the highs still lack. Adding the T-350's helps a great deal and they sound much better to me than the Altec drivers trying to reproduce both mids and highs. According to tests, the T-350's only go out to 14KHZ without falling off but the Altec 802's don't do that well and as I said before, I don't care for the sound of 802's reproducing both mids and highs. Adding tweeters to the 19's is less straight forward because of the 19's EQ'ed xovers so there's a choice of methods if your willing to experiment. If I had a bigger listening room I'd have the Regencys, Model 19's and AR LST's all set up ready to go depending on which I felt like listening to at the time. Three great speakers but all different.
would be an interesting session. Your Regency have the better, beefier component, but as I said I heard some saying the 15WB is more musical and more efficient, but I never heard the Regency so I can't comment on their sound.By the way Is anyone compared the two?
I had never heard the Altec 19 but I heard and didn't liked the 15, very similar characteristics to the Valenica, however the Valenica's were better. Another thing is that some are swore by the Altec duplexes so I will try to find a seller just to be able to hear them and put judgment.
So far the only thing that will replace my EV is another EV. The regency is on my wish list and I'm looking all the time on Craigslist for a local seller. Have you sold your Regency's?
The Regency was designed for corner placement and the Empire wasn't.
With the same woofers in each maybe the Regency would have a little bit more lower extension but the Empire may have a "nice" hump in the response that sounds good too. I moved to a smaller house and I had to get rid of a lot of speakers. I broke up the Regency cabinets but saved the components. I have a room where I can wall mount the drivers and the woofers would have 200 sq ft of volume behind them. In the meantime the Model 19 bass is the best I've had yet with no bass boost (I refuse to use subs) so I decided to concentrate on them. They are musical in a more dynamic way than the EV's, be that good or bad. The 19's are in a small room and I still don't know why people think they need huge rooms to sound good.
In my room they tonally balance beautifully at low levels with no drop in the bass. The near field listening is very enjoyable, the imaging on mono is dead center forward and 25 watts/channel from my Mac 225 tube amp is enough. The wall of sound is very big but not overwhelming at all with NO room treatment. There are a lot of Altec and other 2 way fans to be found but so far I'm not one of them. To me a 3 way is still the best regardless of xover distortion theories,and element insertion loss, etc. All the talk about "full range" and people end up with subs and tweeters so they end up with 3 ways in the long run.
You are right Dave I started out with Full range drivers and ended up with a 4 way: Television Telefunken speakers on open bafle (cheers Tom) on top of my Altec Valencia woofers, with a super tweeter and eventually even a subwoofer, 3 amps per side Gainclones on the Altec woofers, Leak TL12.1 on the full rangers and Quad II on the tweeters, plus the active sub, a complete monster!!! I later changed the Telfunken for Lowther after seeing the Bazzilla thing! I think in an open baffle application the oval telefunken are best....but Horns are way better!!!. I now have only 2 amps and better integration. No sub needed with the bigger cabs.
ive got some regency cabs with the sp15b's that will be refinished soon.
What tweeter would do best here?
Fostex ft17h?
Eminence APT 50?
or ev 35 horns?
I would think the tweeters that can go the lowest, the FT17h only go down to 5k, the Eminence to 3.5k (with low watts) but I would probably stick to the EV T35.
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