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Seems one of the biggest complains of horn detractors is the "horn sound"....that nasal quality sound which can be fatiguing. Has this been looked into...what is it? And can digital eq be used to remedy/alleviate this?
Follow Ups:
As Earl Geddes pointed out before he (unfortunately) was driven away from this forum, the "horn sound' is caused by signals bouncing back and forth across the the horn or waveguide. He stuffs his waveguides with 30 pores per inch (PPI) open cell (reticulated)polyurethane foam. (It's used as a filter medium for ponds and HVAC).I did this to some old, very old, exponential horns and the sound was vastly improved.
The "horny" sound can't be removed with EQ; it's the result of physical structure and so the the structure has to be modified.
There was a lot of discussion on this forum a year or two ago about this. Search foam.
If I remember correctly, EAW was looking at using digital correction on some of their high-end PA stuff to actually try to address this. This isn't standard IIR "digital EQ", but rather sophisticated time-domain FIR filtering based on numerical simulations of the wavefronts in their horns. In a nutshell, I think it amounts to impulse response correction via emission of compensating signals to 'null out' the component reflected from the mouth. It would eat into your headroom, but might actually work. Highly non-trivial, though, and it doesn't generalize particularly well - each system is a one-off.Earls solution is certainly more practical. I have some of the reticulated foam (30ppi stuff from foambymail) that I"m planning on using for plugs for my U15's. I'm very curious as to the impact.
Hi,When you try the open-cell foam, are you planning on changing the crossover to bring the sensitivity level of the hi/mid horn back up to the 97 dB of the woofer? Have you found the level-matching components?
In earlier posts, other people that have tried the foam route have found a loss in level of about 10 dB (IIRC).
I am asking because I am also interested in trying the U15's for home and live sound.
Also, have you added any lining to the inside of the U15 cabinet for first reflections off the back of cabinet through the woofer? I understand from the Live Audio Board that the cabinet as delivered from the factory may be unlined or unstuffed.
Thanks for the info,
John
My 'ultimate' hope with the U15's is to go completely active with dsp xovers, although I'm not entirely sure how long it may take me to get there. However, yes - I'm fully expecting to have to EQ the horn back to flat after adding the foam. It's not just a matter of adjusting the sensitivity, since the impact will also be frequency-dependent. If the impact is truly 10dB it may be a problem with my current amps, but I'm planning on building some Hypex UcD's, so maybe that'll just accelerate the process.I have temporarily simply added some Acousta-stuff to the woofer cabinet. It does indeed come 'empty' from the factory. I'm planning to try plugging the ports for a sealed alignment, but this will obviously require some significant eq and boost to work.
I'm very happy with the U15's as home speakers - they are at least as good as I was hoping for, and for the price of the rat-fur versions, they're an amazing bargain IMHO.
Thanks! I can't wait to hear your results with the foam! I had an evil tickle in my mind to do the same thing. As for the 10 dB, that is just what I remember someone having quoted on this board ( I may be out to lunch on this one ).Also, I suspect that the high/mid is padded almost 10 dB to match the woofer at the moment, although there may be some kind of gain compensation network for the falling high frequency response from the compression driver, which would use up that additional 10 dB at high frequencies.
Let us know how it works out.
John
If anyone "Drove" Earl away from this site, it was Earl himself.There is no question he could offer a great deal, but his pattern of making gross mis-statements and never admitting them did damage his credibility here. There are many here who are quite knowledgeable and not easily blinded by phds.
BTW, the open cell foam you mention was used for pattern control more than dealing with the "Higher Order Modes" you speak of. Earl's "Oblate Spheroidal" throat geometry and overall waveguide shape had the most significant influence on the HOMs as well as the pattern control.
In case you hadn't noticed, the lead post was a none-too-clever troll, and one that was well addressed by Mr. Eizik. Any well designed horn will have low coloration. The biggest problem with "Horn Sound" is too many people are exposed to poorly designed and implemented systems: taking PA elements and putting them in your HiFi will not yield the best sound.
eso
"In case you hadn't noticed, the lead post was a none-too-clever troll"You say it was. I don't agree. Artemis is not the first person to ask the question here and elsewhere. And the answer is clear isn't it? "Horn sound" is an acoustic problem and has to be dealt with through acoustic means.
Even the most well designed wave guide is going to have Higher Order Modes but fewer of them at lower levels and they still need filtering through acoustic means. Geddes identified the problem exactly, even for his own well designed waveguides, and came up with an elegant solution using reticulated foam.
But this has nothing to do with what you say is "pattern control."
"but his pattern of making gross mis-statements"
You say so, but I saw no such pattern.
But I did see a pattern of personal attack. If you will remember, a person actually made up an alias with which to attack him.
This much is clear to me: I learn a lot less from this board since Geddes left. On the other hand, no doubt some folk are a lot more comfortable here since he left. They win, I lose. I don't feel polite about it.
Let me put it this way: The High Efficiency Speaker discussion board had the participation of one of the few real experts on acoustic waveguides and horns, so it drove him away. This was not behaviour favourable to our own interests, was it?
Did you guys see the measurements I published online with the reticulated foam? If I'm not mistaken, they are the only before & after measurements posted online.In my humble opinion, it's the most significant improvement you can make to a horn system. Once you correct the frequency response, the difference in dynamics is jaw-dropping.
If you think horns are dynamic WITHOUT the foam, you would go bananas if you heard the improvement.
The data is buried in this thread:
http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php?t=62789
It's a long one, I admit.
Earl was done in here by his pedantry and pompous attitude not by what he actually had to say. I think he was offended because people wouldn't kiss his ass.Other pros come here and enlighten us without all the drama that attended Geddes, fellas like Tom Danley, Bruce Edgar, Steve Schell and Bill Fitzmaurice. Regular guys who don't talk to us like we're jerks.
n
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Boo!
While, I myself am not easily offended, I saw how Earl's choice of words ticked off a lot of people; very condescending at times. I remember reading some of his posts and telling myself "What he wrote was not what he really meant, what he wrote was not what he really meant, what he wrote was not what he really meant..." I even informed him that if he could be a bit more tactful with his words, then he would get better responses from people on this forum. He didn't listen and suffered the consequences. Either way, I don't think this forum has really lost anything by Earl not being here.
"Artemis is not the first person to ask the question here and elsewhere. And the answer is clear isn't it? "Horn sound" is an acoustic problem and has to be dealt with through acoustic means."Have you ever heard a really good HiFi horn rig? To my ears, most high-end boutique speakers sound far more colored than the best horn rigs out there. So perhaps the question should be "Can the horns be EQd to mimic the colorations of the most favored direct radiators. Again this idea was well addressed in Mr. Eizik's post.
"Let me put it this way: The High Efficiency Speaker discussion board had the participation of one of the few real experts on acoustic waveguides and horns, so it drove him away. This was not behaviour favourable to our own interests, was it?"
As Tom mentioned we have several of the leading figures in Horn design here already. I think Tom forgot to mention RCA-fan in his list...
Mr. Waelti, I'm sure Earl would love to share his expertise with you. Try contacting him through his company website...
eso
Eso, it's probably bad form to verbally cross swords with someone on the day their son is born, but I can't sit this one out.I think that you more than anyone else drove Earl away.
You repeatedly attacked him verbally, apparently feeling entitled to because in your judgment Earl owed you or everybody or somebody a retraction and/or apology.
Now it looks to me like you're blaming Earl for your behavior.
True that many people are put off by his style. Most seemed to get over it. For whatever reason you did not - and apparently still feel the need to defend your behavior.
Is this board a richer or a poorer place without him?
Duke
p.s. - You are mistaken about the function of the open-cell foam. It has nothing to do with pattern control.
...with a lot of constructive things to offer. I really like him, and like to talk with him. In spite of his seeming arrogance on the messageboards and E-Mails, in person, he is a nice, reserved, even quiet man. He won't shy away from a conversation, and you can tell that he always thinks he is right. But he isn't usually as abrasive about things in person as he is in E-mails and messageboard posts. He is simply confident in his aproach to things, and in his solutions.The problem I've had with Earl is that he seems to want to "take ownership" of many audio concepts, some that he hasn't studied deeply and so is not really qualified to speak about. Look at his books, for example. Lots of chapters, as though he wants to touch on every subject. Sometimes I think that's so he can say, "I wrote a book on that," when in fact, he may have made only a cursory overview of the subject.
Once Earl has taken a stand, he'll defend it way past the point where it is obviously indefensible. At that point, he'll generally fabricate a set of conditions that make his case more plausible. I don't like that, and think it is beneath him. Just like Franklin was frustrated by the DNA models of Watson and Crick, Geddes sometimes finds himself unable to accept the work of others, particularly if they aren't accredited in acoustics.
Earl's a smart guy. I like discussing things with him. But I'd like him a whole lot more if he didn't try so hard to maintain his ivory tower.
Eric, that's a different story. He knocks everyone but Edgar, and I don't think that's very productive either. Earl can be frustrating, sure. But Eric never gave him a chance because he saw him as a threat to Edgar. That's a shame, because both have good things to say and the real problem is the Ford/Chevy mentality that people tend to take. Clouds their view to the point of blindness.
Darn, I thought it was me. ;-)
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Boo!
Duke, I submit that you can never have too much talent or too many good men. So IMHO we are poorer.Earl, to me at least, was far more willing to share his knowledge even with those with little understanding. I don't find that as true with most of the guys here. This forum seems to be more about having theoretical discussions on the fine points. It isn't an easy place for the beginner to get the needed info on how to start in this hobby. I suppose this is a reflection on the vast amount of time and effort required to make a speaker that can compete in the marketplace.
Russ
I stand corrected about the foam.That was not difficult to say. I made a mis-statement and have admitted it when corrected.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but I cannot accept responsibility for the behavior of others. There have been plenty of clashes here and most are eventually resolved. I had thought Earl and I had agreed to ignore one another months before he stopped posting here. I do know that I stopped engaging in any thread in which he was participating and making no further comments to him directly for some time before he stopped participating here.
eso
Eso:I can see why you and Earl clashed both of you have the same tendency to make BLUNT statements. For example "The lead post was a not too clever troll" and you accuse Earl of making gross mis-statements!!!! Nothing wrong with this question or the one below about DSP correction of truncated horns. We must learn to be more tolerant of each other's inperfections. Brilliant people in general are more peculiar than average.
.
ArtemiusAny horn which sounds nasal and fatiguing is a work-in-progress at the very least. Geting the right horn mated with the right driver for the application, along with worthy amplification, should go a long way towards solving any of these problems. Using digital EQ to address the problem is like turbo-charging a V8 engine, which is running on only 6 cylinders, to get more performance out of it. Get the basics right and proceed from there. Now this begs the question: can you use digital EQ to compensate for the typical colorations observed in high-end audio direct radiator speakers: i.e. compressed dynamics and "screechiness" caused by engineered-in peaks in the above 8K Hz region used to get more of a life-like sound? I suppose you could, if you also introduce an electronic dynamic range expander, but it would be easier just to start with horns. Good ones of course.
Paul
You can use DSPs to achieve flat response, it's de rigeur in pro-sound. But flat response and sounding good isn't necessarily the same thing. 'Horn Sound' is coloration added by the system, and that's something that no DSP can remove. A bad horn may sound better with than without correction, but not as good as a horn that sounds good to begin with.
Hi,
perhaps the problem is that you listened to wrong horns. Have you heard the Edgarhorn? No fatiguing here. With a good SE tube amp, like Cy Brenneman's Cavalier Plus, it's the musical nirvana. Good luck.
I have been playing around with horns for years but by no means know as much as others in the forum. But for me in is a matter of matching the horns with the amp and also some horns just don't sound that good for HIFI. They might announce a football game well, but get them in your house and you need to do a lot of work on them to get them to a listenable quality. Cheers.
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