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In Reply to: Feastrex Dimension 5 posted by Tristan on February 10, 2007 at 23:06:24:
Tristan, if you can get a pair of Dimension 5 speakers for $4K including shipping, I hope you'll get a pair for me too while you're at it. Such a low price is unheard of hear in Japan.I assume you are referring to Romy the Cat's criticisms. Did you know that Feastrex's website actually links to those very criticisms? They have nothing to hide. Because the principals of Feastrex have very poor English skills, they hired me to be their interpreter at CES 2006 and I was in the room when Romy dropped by. I remember the whole thing very well, and I can assure you, I don't blame Romy in the least for coming away with a negative impression. Here's why:
1) At that time, all of the Feastrex products still had some bugs in them. They were very good, but not yet ready for prime time. In the case of every product they brought to CES, although the basics of the product have remained unchanged, they have made extensive refinements in the last year, and those refinements make a world of difference. They changed the formulation of their paper. They got rid of dust caps and went to phase plugs instead. They changed the configurations of their cones. They changed the content of the varnish that they apply to the cones. They improved the materials that they use in their yokes. They eliminated bottlenecks in their magnetic circuits. They slightly repositioned their voice coils. The frames were redesigned. They tweaked their enclosures to eliminate certain weak areas of the sound. In other words, the products they are bringing to market are significantly improved over what they brought to CES 2006.
2) Romy stopped by early on the first day of Feastrex's first show ever. Just reading that last sentence should bring a knowing smile to the face of any small manufacturer who has participated in one of these shows. Murphy's law definitely applies. The electricity sucked. The acoustics of the room sucked. Their amplifier broke and they spent precious time dealing with that when they should have been trying to figure out what to do about the horrid acoustics of the room. They finally did eliminate much of the problem, and the solution was ridiculously simple, but by that time Romy's visit was already history. If he had come by late in the show, after they had figured out how to deal with the room's horrid acoustics, perhaps he would have felt differently about them.
3) They fired their chief engineer shortly after CES 2006, and they seem to be much better off without him. (To those who know about Feastrex's earlier relationship with Exact's Mr. Sano, I'm not talking about Mr. Sano. Mr. Sano got the boot half a year before CES, and this fellow was brought in to replace Mr. Sano.) They had high expectations that he would be able to head up their development project, but he had a very hard time thinking in terms of "a startup venture on a limited budget." One mistake that they made was allowing him to determine their pricing structure, which made absolutely no sense whatsoever. One of the things that got Romy pissed off was the screwy way they had their prices set up. Romy wasn't the only one pissed off about that, but I guess a combination of factors made him decide to write about it in his characteristic style -- a style which has gotten him permanently banned from this forum, by the way. Anyway, that side of things has also been addressed.
It took Feastrex nearly all of 2006 to get everything worked out to where they felt confident in starting to bring products to market. It has only been in the past few months that they shipped out anything to anyone. That's one reason why Dick Olsher's glowing comments about the D5nf just recently came out.
I have not heard the most recent Dimension 5 speakers that have all the above improvements made to them, but I had on loan for four months a pair of the type that went to CES -- starting two months before CES, and I returned them two months afterward. I thought they were wonderful, but I couldn't possibly afford them. Fortunately for me, I have had a chance to hear the D5nf speakers a few times as improvements were being made during the past year, because there have been several demonstrations here in Tokyo. I have not heard the final version, which Mr. Teramoto tells me is much better than the ones I heard,but the ones I heard knocked my socks off. I was preparing to get the basic black model but got a good deal on a pair of the gold model because they had some cosmetic blemishes in the gold finish of the yoke.
If the Dimension 5 was within my budget I would be listening to it again before buying, but it's not so I only made it a point to listen to the D5nf. If the Dimension 5 has improved as much in the past year as the D5nf has, it is sure to be one fantastic speaker.
Finally, to go back to Romy, have you seen his personal speaker system? It is a five-way compression driver horn system. Knowing him, I don't doubt for a moment that it is truly fantastic, but I wonder if he would ever be pleased with any single driver solution. "Different strokes for different folks," as they say. I hope that someday Romy has a chance to hear the Feastrex drivers that are actually being brought to market. It would be interesting to see if his final opinion would be any different.
As always, "Your mileage may vary." Still, that's an incredible price if it's correct. I know some people in Japan who would love to be able to buy a pair at that price.
Follow Ups:
Hi Gang,
Sorry I was misinformed about the price of the Dimension 5 speakers. They're considerably more than $4,000.00 per pair, but probably still worth every penny. I have to scrimp and save to get a pair. I'll let ya'll know what I think as soon as I get them.
Cheers,
Tristan
CW,
Thank you for writing back. Could you give me the price quotes on the 5e/6e? Are they in the market now? The web site says "Sales to commence soon"
RRR,There are quite a few variants of the field coil drivers available. Here are some of the variables:
Cone size: 12cm or 16cm
Exciter coil wire cross-section: square or round
Yoke & pole piece material: iron, iron/Permendur, Permendur*
* Permendur yoke & pole piece is milled from a single chunk of metalSome of the above combinations can be delivered immediately, and some would require parts that are not currently in stock.
There are other options available as well. For example, One of their most enthusiastic supporters in Japan recently ordered a 9-inch field coil driver from them, even though such a beast does not exist yet . . .
I don't know what the prices are offhand (the only detail I need to remember is that I can't afford them, even though the prices are lower than they were in the past), but if you are really interested in knowing, depending on where you live you should either contact Feastrex directly or contact the appropriate local representative for your region. (If you don't know, it is no problem for Feastrex to forward your inquiry.) Chances are that even Feastrex would have to contact their parts suppliers before they could give you a clear answer on some of the options available.
If I ever win the lottery I may ask Feastrex to make me a pair of the all-Permendur units. The present specs are 22,500 Gauss (actual measurement, not theoretical) but only because they wanted an extra safety margin in the voice coil gap . . . Mr. Teramoto says that if he was to take the gap down to 0.7mm, he could probably get exceedingly close to 24,000 Gauss . . . not that it really matters except for getting into the Guiness Book of World Records. Adding one or two dB of sensitivity to a fullrange that's already 105dB probably does not make much difference in real world listening.
Thanks CW
All that trouble with logistics and needed corrections in one year, last year. That is not the greatest advertisememt. I do wish them luck though.
You are quite right, chopper87. I think they may have made just about all of the mistakes that people with good ideas, sincerity and dedication but little experience in the business can make when starting out. If it wasn't for the deep pockets of their president, who makes money from several biotechnology patents, their mistakes would probably have caused them to disappear from the scene faster than you can say "whizzer cone." They initially spent an amount of money that makes one wince to hear it, but the guys who are left know how to squeeze a dollar until the eagle grins. My own line of business is totally unrelated to theirs, but I know how easy it is for a starry-eyed entreprenuer who comes into "easy money" (an easily obtained loan or "other people's money," in their case the money that the president had obtained from his other business) to use that money to dig himself into a serious hole. An austerity budget can be a good thing since it limits the amount of harm that an entreprenuer can do to himself. Anyway, the stuff that they are actually shipping now has a lot of magic in it, so I think their many foibles and travels down rabbit trails over the last two years were not in vain.
"You are quite right, chopper87. I think they may have made just about all of the mistakes that people with good ideas, sincerity and dedication but little experience in the business can make when starting out. If it wasn't for the deep pockets of their president, who makes money from several biotechnology patents, their mistakes would probably have caused them to disappear from the scene faster than you can say "whizzer cone." They initially spent an amount of money that makes one wince to hear it, but the guys who are left know how to squeeze a dollar until the eagle grins. My own line of business is totally unrelated to theirs, but I know how easy it is for a starry-eyed entreprenuer who comes into "easy money" (an easily obtained loan or "other people's money," in their case the money that the president had obtained from his other business) to use that money to dig himself into a serious hole. An austerity budget can be a good thing since it limits the amount of harm that an entreprenuer can do to himself. Anyway, the stuff that they are actually shipping now has a lot of magic in it, so I think their many foibles and travels down rabbit trails over the last two years were not in vain."I actually am rooting for them to perfect or at least develope a great sounding and RELIABLE/TRUSTWORTY product. How did they take care of those adventuresome customers who had paid for and experienced flawed products during their very short (if it only took one year to debug) learning period? This is key for potential future customers, like me.
Feastrex did not ship a single product outside the country until just recently. They did all their beta testing in Japan, where everything is close by and they have the advantage of being able to communicate in the same language with the users. Every time they made improvements, they went back and "upgraded" everyone to the new and improved version. They have sold a fair number of units in Japan, but I find it interesting that MANY of their local customers have gone back to buy other models. They'll start off with the D5, D5nf, or D6, and then they'll go back and buy a different model than the one they originally purchased, and then they go for the field coil models. Feastrex enjoys a really outstanding relationship with its local customers in Japan. And some of its best customers are its subcontractors, which works out really well because they become very enthusiastic about, and cooperative with, Feastrex's vision. Of course, what's possible for them inside Japan and outside Japan are very different, due to the physical distance and the language barriers. That's why they waited until recently to start shipping outside the country.
"Feastrex did not ship a single product outside the country until just recently. They did all their beta testing in Japan, where everything is close by and they have the advantage of being able to communicate in the same language with the users. Every time they made improvements, they went back and "upgraded" everyone to the new and improved version. They have sold a fair number of units in Japan, but I find it interesting that MANY of their local customers have gone back to buy other models. They'll start off with the D5, D5nf, or D6, and then they'll go back and buy a different model than the one they originally purchased, and then they go for the field coil models. Feastrex enjoys a really outstanding relationship with its local customers in Japan. And some of its best customers are its subcontractors, which works out really well because they become very enthusiastic about, and cooperative with, Feastrex's vision. Of course, what's possible for them inside Japan and outside Japan are very different, due to the physical distance and the language barriers. That's why they waited until recently to start shipping outside the country."That is really great news. I am a proven fan of the small yet talented and dedicated Japanese designer. I have yet to find the equal of my Yamamoto A08-S.
However, I have invested much time and money into purchasing and comparing many respected eight inch full range drivers in reflex, back, and front horn cabinets. Unlike with most electronics, it is often very tricky to predict how each driver will perform in rarious settings. A prime example; I have a rare pair of (although readily available from Lowther) Lowther PM2MKII Alnico drivers that are fitted with the same sized magnet ring as the PM4, but, use a softer and less potent pole piece and plate. This driver uses the same updated cone and has the same 2.2 flux density as my Lowther DX-4's. However, I preferred the sound of DX-4's in all previously tried cabinet types. The dX-4's just offered more presence and life, especially in the midrange and high frequencies. BUY, when I ventured to try various full range drivers in the very simple JE Labs Open Baffle, the PM2MKII's came to LIFE in a stunning fashion! I am talking the type of artificial acoustic reality that you don't forget when you hear it. No other (in my collection) full range driver has ever pulled this magic trick off in any of my cabinet/horn types Period. I then (I don't assume much any more) assummed that if I preferred other drivers, including the very similar DX-4's, in all other cabinets, then they (the dx4's) should really shine in the OB's. NOT! All other drivers sounded nice but very much as they did in other various cabinet experiments. None came even remotely close to the magic trick pulled off by the PM2MKII's in the JE Labs OB's. So why bring this up in a thread devoted to Feastrex. Well, because when I questioned Lowther about ,what the hell was happening here, they claimed that the very large PM4 type magnets' air gap is much larger than others and when excited offers this unique sonic bennefit. Like the PM2MKII/PM4, the Feastrex also have very large and roundish shaped magnets. I am still baffled as to why this potential benefit did not manafest itself until fitted in open baffles though. But, it is huge and real, and has caused me to put all my other drivers and cabinets in moth balls. I would love to try Feastrexs' in my OB's.
Chopper87,I do believe I envy you. I have never heard the Yamamoto A08-S, but damn! Miss Yamamoto has a mighty fine set of hood ornaments on her. That has to be one of the most erotic-looking amplifiers I have ever seen, and if it sounds anywhere near as nice as it looks, it must be wonderful. And the same goes for the PM2MKII. I've never heard it, but I have a friend who visits Japan from overseas a few times each year listen to the Exact and Feastrex drivers, and until he found Exact and Feastrex, the PM2MKII was the only fullrange that ever really turned him on. In fact, he has a love-hate relationship with Lowther, because he loves the PM2MKII, but he hates what (according to him -- I have no opinon on the subject myself) Lowther has become in recent years. Basically he turned to Exact and Feastrex to find a driver that could replace his ancient PM2MKII units that he keeps nursing along. He too uses his PM2MKII units in OB, by the way.
It has been over a year since he last came to Japan, and fully two years since he visited Feastrex with me. At that time Feastrex and Exact's Mr. Sano were still cooperating to produce what eventually became the Feastrex D6, and he went to hear the first prototype. At that point, my friend had already been discussions with Mr. Sano for quite some time about producing a driver very similar to that as a one-off pair for him. And it is interesting that although Mr. Sano was very much into dust caps instead of phase plugs, my friend was insistent on phase plugs in his one-offs, which is coincidentally the direction that Feastrex also ultimately went in. The sad part for my friend is that Mr. Sano got my friend's money and started to build the drivers but never completed them, and to this day they are unfinished. Mr. Sano can't finish them because he owes certain parts suppliers money and they won't do anything for him until he pays up. So my friend's units sit in Limbo . . . next time my friend comes to Japan we're going to visit Mr. Sano and try to pick up the available parts for my friend's unfinished drivers and then go beg on bended knee (I expect I will be literally doing that -- that's not just a figure of speech) for Feastrex's Mr. Teramoto to finish the drivers for my poor orphaned friend.
(The Japanese have an expression, "shiri-nugui," that is one of their great contributions to the world's linguistic culture. It means to clean up another person's mess, but the literal meaning is to wipe another person's ass for them. For some reason it is not considered an offensive expression even in polite company, although it always conveys the strong sense of being inconvenienced.)
I can't remember what my friend told me about why the PM2MKII units sound better than all the other Lowthers, including the PM4, but I can tell you that his explanation didn't sound anything at all like what you are telling me you heard from Lowther, and I bet he would say that the explanation Lowther gave you is a line of BS. (One of his peeves with Lowther is that there is no longer anyone there who really understands the Lowther drivers. According to my friend, there very few people who really understand Lowther, and none of them work for Lowther . . . )
Since he has not heard any of the new Feastrex units, I don't know how my friend would compare them to the PM2MKII, but I know he heard a huge world of difference between all the Exacts and the Lowther drivers, and likewise for the first Feastrex D6 prototype that he heard two years ago. He was not looking for a driver that would duplicate the sound of the PM2MKII, so it was not seen as a problem, but he was always very clear, there is nothing Lowther-like about these Japanese fullranges. I never heard anyone comment that the sound of the Feastrex drivers is evocative of Lowther. If you are a big fan of the PM2MKII, you might prefer the D5 or D6 to the D5nf. On any open baffle of manageable size, a helper woofer would be in order, especially for the D5/D6, as they are very highly damped by their monster magnets. But they are very fine sounding drivers indeed, and I bet you would love them. When I say, that, I'm extrapolating from the experiences of my friend, which seem to closely parallel yours. "Great minds run along the same track," and all that . . .
Hi! I am the friend that Christopher is referring to and yes, i do like the PM2MKII better than the rest of the Lowthers. My take on the reason why it is better than the ones with "hard" pole pieces is that the soft center pole is fully saturated in the PM2MKII. This fact gives two greate benefits, lower vc inductance and a magnet field that is not as easily affected by the current in the VC. I also think that one of the reasons you are getting better resunts in an OB is the shere mass of the magnet, all reactive force from vc movement is first seen by it so the relationship between cone mass and magnet mass is not unimportant. The magnet also have a very nice and smooth shape.
By the way, the international representatives for Feastrex that I know of are:In the USA, Lotus Group: http://www.lotusgroupusa.com/
In the U.K., Select Audio: email select.audio [at] tiscali.co.uk
In France, MADOTEC: http://mapage.noos.fr/dom.mafrand/
In China & Taiwan, Siu-Chong Tin, website coming soon and fullrange blog: http://wonki.wordpress.com/ ; email china.sale [at] feastrex.com
I know Feastrex has representation in Russia, and I believe in Germany as well, but I don't know the contact details. (It would help if Feastrex would update their website at least once every six months!)In any case, contacting the nearest representative is usually a good way to get information about a product. :)
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