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Hi guys.Anyone know of an inexpensive active stereo subwoofer crossover with parametric EQ?
Follow Ups:
A Behringer DCX 2496 digital crossover at 250$. I'm using one for that duty.
Chris
Hey Chris,I'm eyeing the Behringer DCX2496 myself. Can you give my your impression in terms of sound? (I'm pretty darned sure it will do any function I need, and them some.)
I'd appreciate if you could just give me an idea of the system you use it it, and if it degraded the sound. I'm particularly sensitive to and sort of harshness or fuzzyness--I'm going tube/SET/no-speaker-level-crossover to avoid it.
Thanks for any experiences,
George
...but I chose the dbx DriveRack PA. It was recommended by a manufacturer who uses them in his 3-way, high-sensitivity, actively filtered systems. My initial intention is to replace the Dahlquist DQLP-1 that I'm using only for low-pass and create an actively filtered 2-way system, with the main part driven full range (with passive parts in the B/MR and the tweeter crossovers) or perhaps with a, say, 20Hz high-pass filter on it. Then after I've figured out a few basics with the filter, I'll create an active 3-way, eliminating all passive parts and using, initially, an old Hafler poweramp on the tweets. I'm considering either bottlehead Paramour IIs or Music Reference 6EM7 SETs for the treble.We'll see...or hear. It'll be interesting! :-)
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Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
Hey Jeffrey,Thanks for the tip--the dbx looks cool. What aspects of it did your source like? Better sound? Offhand, do you have any sources/prices on it? I can double click around later.
My strategy is the same as yours, though on a smaller scale (wow, nice!) I'm thinking of a digital active crossover like the Behringer or dBx, to experiment and get the crossover points dialed in, and then build a passive line-level crossover with those parameters.
The digital crossover can then move to my next experiment. Lather, rinse, repeat. ;^)
Best,
Hi George, did you notice that nearly all (at least staticly) realy hi end system are :
1. multi amped - you allready are there
2. multi way min 3 up to 6 ways
3. high efficiency, often horns, allways powerfull motors (magnets)
4. using active crossovers ?IMHO active , be they digital or analogue, crossovers are by a hudge margin superior to passive solutions; no parasitic inductances, reactances or capacitances of the passive comoponents, no insertion losses (min 3 DB often much more), much easier for amplifiers to drive the speakers.
Take a look at this very informative site:Chris
Hi Chris--We are on the same page. I guess my "passive line level" crossover really isn't passive in the general sense. I'm speaking of inserting a filter composed of passive LRC elements between the preamp and power amp.
So is that actually an "active" crossover? I agree that putting passive crossovers between amp and speakers is to be avoided, for many reasons. I remember my first experience with active XOs, as a teen, in a high end store on Magneplanar Tympani's. The difference between the active and passive XOs was amazing to me--the vocals were much more clear and lifelike. Stunning, and still leaves an impression.
To steer the conversation back to something relevant to this forum, it seems active crossovers are a natural for high efficiency/fullrange systems, for it avoids the inefficiency of passive XOs, and the division of labor by frequency bands allows the sorts of flea power amps that are part of the motivation for efficiency.
Thanks again Chris for your support and info. I hope you don't miss my reply to your message below--I attached itself above yours in the thread. I asked about your experience with the sound of the heretical and cheap Behringer.
Best,
George
...$434 delivered in the US; see link.I bought some RCA-to-XLR and XLR-to-RCA adapters here... http://www.audiogear.com/Audio-Adapters-Xlr.html ; $7+ and $8+ each. I also have some new Audioquest IC coming plus some XLR connectors so I can avoid all the extra mechanical and solder connections in the adapters.
The dbx unit was recommended for its sound quality; I hope he's correct. I'm a little nervous about all the inexpensive analog circuitry in the dbx; I expect the analog stuff is all op-amps.
The next-up speaker-management system in the dbx line, the 260, somewhere in the $800s, can interface with a computer, but I felt I didn't need that.
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Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
Thanks for the price source, and for sharing what you've heard.I googled on "driverack pa dcx2496" and came up with this discussion on prosoundweb:
http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/pv/117/0/0/
This is a forum for performance sound pros, and their consensus is that they like the dcx2496 better for features and sound, but it has had reliability issues (I notice that the dcx2496 is backordered on PartsExpress, and wonder if that isn't related.) So yer pays yer money, and yer takes yer chances.
I find the basic concept appealing--the ability to effortlessly change crossover parameters and frequency response. My personal opinion (not a fact) is that frequency response adjustment is the red-headed stepchild of audio fanatics, perhaps unfairly so. Granted, as another link in the chain it has to degrade the sound somewhat, but both these units are relatively cheap, and offer gobs of flexibility to experiment and learn. Once crossovers and response are dialed in, one could then hardwire the optimal configuration using line-level passives.
I hope you'll continue to report your experiences.
Thanks again,
George
Most pro users will not put a DRPA on their A rigs, BSS or Lake seem to be the favorite, about 10 times the price of a DRPA.
I own a DRPA and am happy with it for use in live/DJ sound, I would be nervous using it with a system such as yours for critical listening.
.
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Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
I have the DCX2496 but can not directly provide input with respect to your question.However the quality of the sound will depend in part on the implementation.
The DCX is a pro crossover that uses balanced inputs and outputs with impedance and voltage values that are not always consistent with a home system.
For example I needed to add on attenuation of 12db on the analog output in order to match it up with my digital amplifier. The impedance of the attenuation was also a critical factor.
There are other considerations as well.
Take a look at the attached Yahoo forum and look in the history for others who have successfully used this unit.
Don
nt
SET with el cheapo Behringer, are you serious? This is not an audiophile approved route! See my system:Sources: Squeezebox 2 (slimdevices.com), M-audio Revolution7.1 soundcard if needed
Digital converter/conditioner: Behringer SRC 2496, upsamples to 48 or 96 /24 bits as used by the DCX
Digital crossover Behringer DCX in 3 x 2 configuration, tweaked with Tent labs clock, BG and oscon caps in power and digital sections, direct analogue outputs à la Scott Endler (or Thierry Martin) and 6 gang Alps potentiometer
Three stereo amplifiers, each have an input potentiometer, feeding directly the drivers of the loudspeakers, a 70 W PP tube amplifier and two SET amplifiers 300B and 2A3 tubes.
Speakers are good old Klipsch Cornwall cabinet only, with a Beyma Cp-21 tweeter, Altec 511/806 horns and Altec 414A woofers.
The most important feature is the DRC, using Inguz plug-ins for Slimserver, By far the most effective tweak! This is a must for the Klipsch squawker and Beyma tweeter which are not linear at all. Apart that DRC take care of the alignment, phase distortion and room reflections.
Planned:
1. a subwoofer to take care of the 25 to 70 Hz but with more humph and power , crossover mad with another DCX , subs built in a closet ( 1550 l, heavily filled with clothes ;-)), drivers : the K34K from the Cornwalls powered with a Hafler p4000 500W amplifier.
2. new output card for the DCX from Selectronic.Bottom line: DCX is a very capable and flexible tool with decent stock sound becoming much better when tweaked. The real problem is the necessity to keep the signal hot to the DCX and attenuate it after. 6 channel volume controls are rare, mine is basic (6 gang potentiometer)
A lot of information on the web and the best site are:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15943&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=41 , 116 pages !!!
http://www.dcx2496.fr/ just translated from French
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DCX2496/ free but must subscribe.Best output drop in output card, supply, clock and 6 channels volume control:
http://www.selectronic.fr/international.aspSearch the web, study all that and go for it, in the worst case you can resell it with a very slight loss.
Chris
Thanks for the fascinating info, Chris. You sound like a similarly eclectic geek. I'll follow up on your leads.Ever thought of feeding a digital signal directly from a pc/cd into your Behringer, and skipping some stages of conversion?
I'm super curious to hear your opinions of the Behringer's sound, in the context of a SET/audiophile system. What can you tell me?
Thanks again,
George
Hi George,
You ask about direct digital feed from the PC. The squeezebox does exactly that : from hard drive to the SB through ethernet (wire or wireless) , then digital out to the Behringers. All the processing : DRC, crossover and EQ is done in the digital domain. The D/A conversion is done in the DCX.
DCX and SET: no problem DCX uses very good AKM DACs (4393) and I tweaked it a lot. I'm waiting for the new I/O French card.
I honestly think tha the dCX is very transparent and if it harm the sound it does it to a much less extend than other alternatives (passive or analogue). This combined with a NOT APPROVED audiophile price makes it unavoidable. A lot of people use it.
There are some alternatives, more friendly and sophisticated like the TACT and the DEQX but the starting cost is arround 5k$!
Chris
Hey Chris,Greetings, fellow heretic! Yes, I have a tendency to want to do things differently, which is one reason I got out of flying, and do not work with radioactive materials. In audio, if I keep one hand in my pocket, the consequences of my misadventures are mostly limited to financial and emotional pain. Mostly. (g)
Thanks for all the information, it is good grist for the mill. Perhaps if I go the Behringer route I can milk you for the most worthwhile tweaks. I'm guessing that the input needs to be kept hot in order to use all the ADC's bits, and there isn't sufficient output level control to drop it back down again? I remember reading in a manufacturer's comment on a review (Enjoy The Music, perhaps), that the grain the reviewer heard in bypass mode was due to this--not having enough input level to fully use the ADC.
"The most important feature is the DRC, using Inguz plug-ins for Slimserver, By far the most effective tweak! "
I don't know nothin' 'bout birthin' no babies! Uhm, could you explain this to me. (I think I understood "Slimserver" ;^) )
That French DCX2496 tweak site looks very interesting. Clearly a market has grown up around the product.
My current bogey is an open baffle system, biamped, fullrange and 300B SET on top, SS and dual OB 15" woofers on bottom. I'm hoping this will give me both air and slam. Time will indeed tell.
Thanks again for your enthusiasm, info, and encouragement. Good luck!
Lets go:
Slimserver is the Slimdevices software player used to send the muisc files to the Squeezebox (over the network)
Inguz plug-in is a software convolver/equalizer written for slimserver
http://inguzaudio.com/RoomCorrection/
DRC stands for digital room correction which is a software used to create correction filters dialing with amplitude, phase and time alignment correction of the system and the room. No so easy to implement but for shure the future of the sound reproduction. Even the new Microsoft Vista will incorporate some DRC elements !!!
Of course at the begining you have to take the PC musical server route.
Chris
Audio Controll Richter Scale.
Used only but exactly what you are looking for.
Bob
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