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In Reply to: Re: Whomever designed Yorkville's C190... posted by Don M on January 17, 2007 at 09:38:36:
how bad did ENG-90 to 15" go? were you able to try a 10-12?
what highpass did you use?
Follow Ups:
When I did the first comparison the passive crossover was messed up and the waveguide was too far above the woofer.As you know I have a pair of 806a's and 416a's.
Just comparing the ENG-90 to the 811b up close I noticed that the sound was more relaxed as compared to compressed. There was no edge to the music (crossed over at 800hz with a 2nd order BW). And the famous "ring" was completely absent. From 2 to 4khz the ENG won hands down.
However the waveguide is too small for a 15" woofer. The crossover at 1.8 to 2.0 khz is too high for the woofer. Apparently the ENG is also better suited for a modern day pancake driver that has a much higher top end (ie the B&C25).
In conclusion the best route to follow with the 806a would be the conical horn made by Bill Woods. It compensates for most of the weaknesses with the ENG and Altec. Now if Bill could just use the same construction as DDS he could reduce the retail price. This would allow more of us the possibility to purchase a pair.
Since then I have introduced my DCX2496 into the equation. I have set the crossover at 1.2khz (JML values), adjusted the time delay (JML value) and am using a 3rd order BW. I have also digitally equalized the high end to adjust for the 811b.
If you listen at a distance this is by far the best overall sound that I have achieved thus far. I do not critically listen. I just enjoy the music.
Don
I use 18sound XT1086 which isn't all that different, but a bit smaller. Even though the company puts out a plan for a 2-way with a 12" woofer I too feel it doesn't mate well. I am much happier using the 6.5" audux pr170mo as a mid and going with a 3-way design.I find the sound is a little warmer and more to my liking if I run a paper cone up to near 2K rather than run the compression driver down low. Besides, it is nice not to have a crossover in that 200 to 2khz (or so) range.
Russ,Yes a three way would certainly solve the issue of using that Altec 416a up to 1.2 khz.
And that Audax (now available from Madisound) is an excellent choice.
Glad to hear that you 18Sound kit is working out with that change.
Regards,
hi Russ - how did the waveguide "stick out" in sound? - how are you using PR170 and with what woofers and tweeter? (got 15trx40 and might benefit from 3-way)
Freddy, I am new to DIY speakers and haven't much horn experience. The little I do is with older Klipsch, EV, and Peavy PA type speakers. So keep all that in mind.First the XT1086. I started off with the smaller XT120 as the XT1086 was on backorder. I was surprised at how nice it sounded. It wasn't beamy and didn't drill holes in your ears like so many of the older horns that I remembered. I was almost regretting obligating myself to buy the XT1086. But finally I got them and they were so much bigger that I thought I wasn't going to like them in my moderate sized room. The mouth is listed as 10.2" by 8.5" but it looks bigger:) I use the 18sound ND1090 compression driver and a passive crossover straight off their website. The price was too good to turn down but I don't know how the ND1090 stacks up against the B&C or Radian.
But I think they are wonderful. They don't beam or honk. They image very well. And the sweet spot is the entire width of the room. It really doesn't matter where you sit and you have to walk darn near through the middle of the speakers before it collapses. They have incredible detail and clarity that really puts to shame the dome tweeters I am used to.I got the pr170mo more because a friend needed it than because I wanted it. But still it had a good reputation and I am very happy with it. I use it on an open baffle but I think it could be horn loaded or used in a sealed box. A very versitale nice sounding driver. Even though it does have useful output to near 10khz a careful look at the waterfall plots shows first breakup around 1K5 or so. I am crossing at 1,800 hertz and like it. A friend played around using it and the Heil tweeter with an active crossover and ended up liking about the same crossover point too so I feel okay advising it.
Right now I have borrowed woofers. They are 12" eminence in a bass reflex box. No doubt I need to hang an inductor or something on them to even out the rising response. But with an active crossover and a solid state amp the bass is okay and can play very loud, louder than my ears can handle and still stay clean. I have not been used to that with commercial speakers.
So for my first attempt, and even though I am not finished (I need woofers and an active or passive line level crossover) I am quite pleased with the results so far.
Russ
P.S I should point out that IMHO those that like the older horns may feel the new CD waveguides are lame sounding. They don't call attention to themselves and you can't really tell where the sound is coming from. You can play at insane levels without it causing pain (at higher hertz). You don't appreciate the volume level until you walk around the block and see how far away you can still hear it:)
Hi Russ -I'm not much good with any stuff - didn't learn properly.
anyhow - XT1086 looks like a real bargain. From just a minute of listening to ENG-90 up on a karlson box, can tell result is much better in its range than old school horns (and C190's wveguide) and will work fine with an old Eminence driver to give more useful coverage without timbre problems and hotspot(s)
what Eminence 12" type do you have? would 2-12" stacked with XT1086 be an option for headbangers and stil get good blend at xover?
Freddy
[I'm not much good with any stuff - didn't learn properly.]Well I ain't learned at all so that gives you a leg up.
[anyhow - XT1086 looks like a real bargain. From just a minute of listening to ENG-90 up on a karlson box, can tell result is much better in its range than old school horns (and C190's wveguide) and will work fine with an old Eminence driver to give more useful coverage without timbre problems and hotspot(s)]I think we are lucky and have some better, off the shelf horns' these days. Still not much in that 250 hertz or so range but we can hope.
[what Eminence 12" type do you have? would 2-12" stacked with XT1086 be an option for headbangers and stil get good blend at xover?]
Dunno what model# as it is a loaner. From what little I have deduced I'd go 3-way and have a mid range driver. Up to you to decide what is best. I can only say so far I like a paper cone mid.
[ps - I've got k-horn and heresy needing better sound - haha]
I have heard the heresy enough and think it is okay for a center channel above 100+ hertz thing for movies but too basslimited and in your face on the highs for music. I'd say you can get better for your money by ebaying them.
(you've got leg up as haven't learnt/perceived wrong)
so XT1086 sounds good mated to 170MO - hmmm- good vocals would be great thing. maybe someone will have mercy and make larger waveguide cheap for those who want to muck with 15"
how far down do you think ENG can be safley taken with passive 3rd order? if happy @1K2 with cheap driver (210ti) then Id be happy :^)ENG - came in as screw-on - probably has HF limitations after point - that sets bolt-on back further and screw-on still has its "pipe" - at least construction is solid vs Dayton's cheaper WG - that one might work in pinch wiht 806 if could live with limatations.
if DDS or someone would offer either 15 WG or appropriate conical then things would be easier/better for the hobbyist -- must be demand for 15 vs 12.
I"m very sorry for Bill to have 501/HF horns tied up in Peru = bizzare goof on someone's part. AH's 300Hz petal horn looks good.
To comment on your questions:"how far down do you think ENG can be safley taken with passive 3rd order? if happy @1K2 with cheap driver (210ti) then Id be happy :^)"
I believe their is useable response down to 1khz and you should use a crossover that starts at around 1.8khz.
"ENG - came in as screw-on - probably has HF limitations after point - that sets bolt-on back further and screw-on still has its "pipe" - at least construction is solid vs Dayton's cheaper WG - that one might work in pinch wiht 806 if could live with limatations."
I purchased the bolt on version for the 806a. Would you like a measurement from mine to compare with yours?
Regards,
hey Don - just putting waveguie up with old Eminence 1" on a K15 - and cap bypass on pad - ENG90 sounds great - nice waveguide
Hi Don - -a graph sometime might be useful - not mounted nor listened/measured mine - probably go on a small baffle and have to take outdoors on on and off axis plots.
Yes you are absolutely correct.I will look at purchasing some parts and assemble a simple measurement system.
Thanks,
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