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In Reply to: I'll Have To Get It Just To See If I Agree posted by Robertc88 on March 25, 2007 at 10:22:58:
After starting this thread, I went out and picked up a couple of the Sam Cooks, which seem to be among the LAST sacd's hanging around the CD racks in the local BB and Coconuts. These were among the first sacd's released, I think, and the initial reactions were less than enthusiastic. Perhaps the expectation level at that stage was a bit unrealistic for pop recordings of Cook's vintage. Anyway, I became curious about them, especially since they are no long in production, as far as I know (perhaps someone can correct me here).I have "Live at the Copa," "Keep Moving On," and "Ain't that Good News."
I have not had time to give them a thorough and careful audition. But I have to say, I am impressed with the quality of these recordings.
No, they are not as good as the better Groovenotes or Cheskys or DMPs etc. But they are surprisingly good. They DO sound a bit creaky and congested here and there, as pop recordings of this era often do. And they are NOT in the class of, say, Verve's "Ella and Louis," a very fine vintage recording. But they have surprising depth and staging on some tracks.
I think they are well worth owning. The music is, well, infectious and nostalgic. And Cook's voice and style, like Nat Cole's, never dims.
But I don't think you will rush to any of these records to show off your system's capabilities. That is to say, they are not demo quality, in my opinion. But then, with so many pop recordings, then as now, making an heirloom recording probably was not priority, unlike the high seriousness which often prevailed with many vintage classical recordings, where the record producers felt an obligation to capture Van Cliburn, say, or in the instance of some jazz recordings, where it was clearly felt that what was being recorded was important.
Now I have only given the Cook's a kind of first pass, even skipping here and there. But, I am surprised that someone could count any one of these as a "top three" sacd recording. If I change my mind over the coming days, I report back.
Follow Ups:
Yes, "Live At The Copa" is one of those recordings that just sits on the shelf at a nearby music retailer. :) That doesn't necessarily mean it isn't a good SACD for sound quality per se but perhaps more so because of one's musical interests. Lots of SACDs fall by the wayside because of that.I do not really recall anyone including it in their "top" SACD list even for this specific genre of music. I'm curious however because I pretty much agree with his assessment of recordings. He does have one recording deemed "A" on a list he maintains entitled "Sonny Clark Trio" for which I cannot get excellent results with it on my Sony XA777ES player (a highly regarded one in its day) versus other jazz recordings I own. I rate it a low B versus what else I have. So perhaps the equipment used does come into play to some extent.
I appreciate your initial impression and it does seem you were impressed. I look forward to your conclusions about this recording in the future to see where it truly stacks up for sound quality.
I gave this record a very careful listening tonite. I have to say, I stand by my inititial impressions. It's NOT demo quality. It is a fatiguing recording, at times a bit edgy and congested. Yet, it does have certain qualities that will appeal to two-channel enthusiasts who prize vintage recordings. There is a sense of space -- both depth and broadness to the soundstage -- particularly during the less instrumentally crowded passages, which work their magic. There is also a sense of "perpective," for lack of a better word -- a sense that you are a certain distance from the performer, with cues that suggest the arrangement of the supporting musicians. My guess would be that this performance was likely captured on a single mic. However, these cues vanish in the more crowded, louder passages, when the sound becomes congested, as though the mic is being clipped.If you like this recording, it will probably be because of the music and Cook's voice -- not because of the recording's quality.
Just to check my impressions against a reference, it played Verve's Ella and Louis immediately after the Cook recording. The two were not even in the same league. The Verve was so much more relaxed and liquid and natural, the differece was immediately apparent. It's true, the Verve recording is a much simpler affair, without so many musicians and on a much more manageable scale for an engineer. Yet, it clearly exposed some of the shortcomings of the Cook recording.
With regard to the equipment used, I will have to defer to those who have spent more money on their equipment than I have -- although I have to confess that I have dropped a pretty penny on my own two-channel set-up. But I would have to say that I am skeptical that the Copa recording would EVER sound better than the Verve no matter who much you spent.
One cannot always consider every recording reviewed as top notch to be as such. My Sony XA777ES was a class A rated player but not all in that class are equal. And of course there are other things to consider like the amp, speakers, wires, listening room etc. All one can do is compare it to other SACDs they have. One would think changing the player though that the sound quality in relation to other SACDs would remain the same but that is not probably a correct assumption.I can tell you that a have tube and and SS amps, the latter I consider to be of lesser quality. Some SACDs do sound better though on it than the tube amps.
The single SACD recording I mentioned being the Sonny Clark Trio is rated quite highly by most on this forum. I love my jazz and I wish I could get much better results from that one.
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the fact that the Verve recording sounds so good in comparison? Do you have the Verve recording? Does it also sound better on your better equipment?I have an unmodded SCD-1. It may not be the best player around, but it's a pretty good one -- good enough to reveal good recordings from not so good ones.
One would think that a good recording would be better with better equipment, and that a bad recording's flaws would become more apparent. It's been my experience that, as equipment goes down in quality, the discernable differences between good and bad recordings DECREASE. This explains why the recording industry is able to get away with generally poor recording practices: most people just don't have equipment that enables them to hear a difference. It's also true that many mass market recordings are doctored to fit the limited frequency ranges and dynamics of cheaper equipment -- something that a good playback system unmasks.
This is the first time I have heard of good equipment turning a frog into a prince. It is interesting that you mention the "Big Brother" sacd, as well. I haven't spun this one in a while, but it struck me in a similar fashion.
Perhaps there's something more subjective at work here with regard to what you listen for. If I recall correctly, you did mention a certain brightness in Copa, which I also experience on my system. Perhaps your system's strengths are more in tune with the Copa Live's strengths. Perhaps your observations, which I am not discounting, have more to do with how well particular recordings "match up" with a system's capabilities that with how good the recordings actually ARE.
But on my system, the Verve is cleary a better, more realistic recording. And though Copa has merits, it is certainly a harsher, more fatiguing recording by comparison.
I listened to it again last night and it is excellent, probably more so than I've given it credit for in the past. If I do get the Copa recording, I'll be sure to do a comparison.I really don't recall to tell you the truth of anyone tagging this Copa recording as one of the best SACDS. I'm appreciative of any opinions and comparisons amongst SACDs and thank you again. I have a strong feeling though using my XA777ES that my results won't differ from you.
If you like the Ella\Louis and the Copa musically, give the Eden Atwood records on Groovenote a try. They are both top notch recordings. Susana McKorkle's "From Bessie to Brazil" is also another splendid recording with a collection of excellent songs -- sonically it is very good as well, just a smidge below the Atwoods, which are among the very best of this type (at least on my system).Good luck. Let me know if your impressions with regard to Copa vrs. Ella\Louis are the same as mine.
Including Atwood's "This Is Always - Ballad Session" recording. I posted a short time ago inquiring if there were large differences between their CDs and SACDs for sound quality. I don't like to duplicate recordings and I may have 10 or so of both since I started with SACD. The Groovenote CDs I daresay beat lots of my SACDs! The recordings I have duplicated were both for comparison purposes and because they were amongst my all-time favorites for music that were then released on the SACD format.I'd like to make some recommendations myself. Try The New York Sessions recordings from Chesky and the MPS-Verve Oscar Peterson SACDs if you haven't done so. I think you'll like what you hear. Be careful with the latter though as they would not track on my Sony XA777ES. They work fine on my Sony SACD CE775 changer and still sound very good even though that player pales in comparison to my XA777ES. Those OP recordings I daresay are better than the Sonny Clark Trio Audio Fidelity recording on my XA777ES! Once again, one's mileage may vary! :)
In my case, the Sony XA777ES. I haven't bought any of these in the past and they remain glued to my local music retailer's store shelf. :)I'm very curious about them. This forum is loaded with folks that have better players than what I have. I believe the ones who have responded favorably to these fit that category. I'm unsure I would get any better results than yourself or halfnote for these particular recordings using the XA777ES. Perhaps if I can get a good price on one though, I'll probably go ahead and give it a try.
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