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I understand this is a controversial topic, but let me relate a short story. Last night I was listening to the new Pentatone/Storioni disc of Schubert piano trios and I found myself vaguely unhappy with the sound--somewhat diffuse and a bit "bleached out," especially the piano. I then remembered that my new pre-amp has a phase button to reverse absolute polarity, so I gave it a try. Lo and behold, the sound came into sharp focus, the tonality seemed more accurate and the presence was now lively and realistic. There is little question in my mind that "correct" sonic reproduction occurred only after hitting the phase button.I have read that this is a common problem, at least for those who actually believe it is a problem. Is it common on SACDs in particular? For those who have noticed the problem and have the facility to reverse absolute polarity, what SACDs in your experience have most markedly manifested the problem? I will certainly be keeping my ears open for this issue as I re-listen to many of my SACDs.
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to see if I can detect a differance.i.e. swap + with - at speaker end. or one end of an ic ?
Thanks
> i.e. swap + with - at speaker end <Yes - that's normally quite easy and quick to do -but you have to "reverse" the wires on BOTH speakers.
> or one end of an ic ? <
That only works with a balanced (XLR) interconnect and requires resoldering - not easy or quick.
And doesn't work at all on unbalanced (RCA) cables - you would get no sound at all - or at best hums and buzzes.
I noted with interest the comments of Charles Hansen in a thread below. Among other things, he simply wants to "bliss out" when listening to music, and not fool around with settings or tweaks. I couldn't agree with him more; I am the (rare?) audiophile who hates spending time tweaking the system--I just want to enjoy the music without any distractions. However, if my only experience with the phase button on my preamp repeats itself on more than the occasional disc, the sonic improvement is too substantial to ignore.If anyone would like to suggest an SACD or two in which inverting absolute polarity made a substantial (positive) difference and if I have that disc, I'll give it a listen.
There are lots of opportunities for absolute polarity to get flipped (maybe multiple times!) in any recording and/or playback chain. Absolute polarity will not be flipped by authoring to SACD, however. There is nothing that will change absolute polarity in the authoring or replication of CDs, SACDs or DVDs. What goes in, comes out with the same polarity that went in.
Best Regards,
I had hair just like that. Are those cowboy boots? And how does one become a "technical recording assistant" at 17 years of age? : )
they're cowboy boots, Justins I think. My time outside work was and is spent on and with horses: Reining and team penning/sorting.I was actually more than 17 and more than a technical assistant, but that's how the credits ran. I set-up and ran the mastering lathe on the session at Methuen along with John from Zuma. I was free-lancing for Telarc then and spent more time on rock sessions in the studio than anything else.
Seems like eons ago...
Best Regards,
Saves time when you play it again...
my apl player has a 180 phase button on the remote for adjustment on the fly. i use it all the time. i've never found it to be more usefull on sacds than redbook cds. it can make a very noticable difference on some recordings and no difference on others.
...absolute polarity but my present setup (since I installed SACD) doesn't include that feature so I haven't been able to experiment. However, in general, SACD seems to be more transparent and to have better transient response which is extrememly noticeable in providing bass definition. I would suspect that these characteristics would actually enchance the ability to hear absolute phase differences.
Harry
Could you list what preamp and what speakers you're using. Thanks.
Rest is Krell--EVO-402 amp and EVO-505 SACD player (with CAST connections)--plus Nordost Valhalla speaker cables. Among other positive attributes, the Krell chain seems to squeeze every last ounce of detail and resolution from the musical signal, which is perhaps helpful in hearing the inversion of absolute polarity.
Your system would be way too detailed (aka, bright) for me. But that's a preference issue. I really don't think that detail, in and of itself, helps or hurts the recognition of polarity differences. The more you do recognize them though, the easier it becomes (and more of a curse, too). I've come to think it's mostly a case of speaker coherence and how simple the crossover is. My Gallo Reference 3s are extremely sensitive to polarity changes (the Gallo tech rep concurs), and to put it mildly, this is a mixed blessing.
but after several months I have decided that it sounds wonderfully like the real thing--a/k/a live music. Live music has an energy and presence that is lost on so many music systems. What some would term brightness, I call an accurate and engaging reproduction of live music. One downside though: an unnaturally bright or poor recording doesn't do well with this system.One question: is your brightness comment directed mostly to the electrostatic speakers, the Krell electronics or both?
I simply have no taste for (to me) excessively detailed or "ruthlessly revealing" systems. They sound unnatural to me and not like live music at all.I'm not judging your system, though. If it pleases you, that's all that matters.
One point that got lost somewhere. I personally don't find SACDs nearly as revealing of polarity differences as vinyl and, especially, reel-to-reel tape. Not sure why.
"I personally don't find SACDs nearly as revealing of polarity differences as vinyl and, especially, reel-to-reel tape. Not sure why."That's interesting. Is that because DSD uses negative feedback to generate the bits and hence sharp transient are softened or phase shifted? As the linked Stereophile article says: "Audiophiles have been suspicious of negative feedback for years, but for reasons I don't understand, they appear to have given delta-sigma modulation their implicit approval."
HowdyWhat makes you say "... and hence sharp transient are softened or phase shifted?" It's a mistake to unquestioningly ascribe potential analog defects to digital.
The impulse response of DSD is cleaner and better defined than PCM at 44.1, 88.2, 96 and 192K...
Another (unsupported) hypothesis: non-linear distortion can also heighten polarity differences, perhaps DSD is more linear than vinyl and, especially, reel-to-reel. (I don't believe this, but it's probably more supportable than your statement :)
Feedback signals have a time delay and time delays create different phase shifts at different frequencies. Unless this delay is very short, it is probable that these phase shifts start becoming audible.
Yes the impulse response of DSD is good but the charts that I have seen (on the internet) show only one frequency. If we run tones of different frequencies through a ADC and check the phase of the input & output tones, I suspect the relative phase changes will be visible although the impulse response will still be excellent. On an analog only system like vinyl or reel to reel that doesn't use much feedback, the phase information would probably be less compromised.This is only a hypothesis but in a system with less phase smear, Dave is able to hear the difference in absolute polarity much better.
Since most ADCs are sigma-delta I think the issue is not CD vs SACD vs analog but rather digital vs analog.
HowdyThe delay is a sample time, hardly audible... (Actually since usually a seventh order sigma delta is usually used there's a little info at a 7 sample delay, still not near audible...) Phase shifts affect impulse responses (visibly.)
in this case, Deutsche Grammophon, and leave SACDs out of the equation (Are there any DG SACDs?). And understand that I'm a total technical illiterate.It's generally agreed by the people who make the lists that DGs were recorded in "inverted" polarity. That's certainly how I hear it. But DG CDs played on my system in "normal" polarity are quite listenable, LPs less so, and R-R tapes even less. I have a Martha Argerich tape of Prokofief and Ravel soncertos that sounded so harsh and veiled I was copnvinced it was defective. Switching the speaker leads provided an almost miraculous "fix." It turns out that most classical tapes (mine at least) sound much better played back in inverted polarity -- the DGs, RCAs, Mercury's, Londons, Angels, Vanguards, but not the Columbias, Philips, and a few others. For what it's worth.
Just realized my post has absolutely nothing to do with the original subject :-(
HowdyI have to admit that I don't like Deutsche Grammophon recordings on average, when I get back to my system I'll try hitting the polarity switch and see what happens...
I know I was.
HowdyI just tried
Mutter's Beethoven - "Spring and Kreutzer Sonatas"
"Bryn Terfel Sings Favorites"
Lang Lang's Tchaikovsky/Mendelssohn - "First Piano Concertos"
Karajan's Beethoven - Symphonies 5&6
Gardiner's Holst - "The Planets" (still playing)No differences flipping the polarity switch, tho I must admit that they sound better on the current incarnation of my system than I remember them sounding :)
and was surprised to note that one of my best audiobuddies has the exact same JM Lab speakers (front) that you do. I don't recall that he can detect polarity changes either. Sorry.
HowdyI guess the question is, can you hear polarity changes on his system? :)
Strangely enough, the subject has't really arisen at his place (we usually have multiple other fish to fry). Which means to me that there is probably little audible difference (your experience tends to confirm this), because when listening to really polarity-coherent speakers I can usually tell when something is "wrong." Next time over there, I'll experiment.I'm a little hesitant because I've run into folks who "don't want to know," and I find this totally understandable. Frankly, with no way in my own system to switch polarity except at the speaker terminals, there are times when I would gladly do without this.
HowdyI don't see why it would be more or less common on SACDs than CDs or records...
I have some associates who clearly hear differences when I flip my polarity switch for some SACDs and express an opinion one way or the other, but I don't hear anything that matters to me when I do it for them :)
Are you saying that you hear no diffence when inverting polarity (on discs where others hear it) or that the difference you hear is either insubstantial or simply unimportant to you given your sonic preferences? Thanks.
HowdyI hear a little difference, perhaps best described as a change in the size/shape of the sound stage. The change is small enough that I never even play with my polarity switch except if a guest requests me to. Some guests obviously have stronger reactions to the different settings and for them I switch it to whatever they want.
Polarity on the source makes a huge difference. If the system is very sensitive and the source is a reference piece you will notice better highs and lows when the polarity is going in the right direction. Only one way to tell if the polarity is correct and that is with your ears. If you can tell then your system is pretty resolving. You should get sweeter highs, better low level detail and a more full midrange with less hardness or forwardness. If you have some music that has a lot of piano in it then play this pretty loud a few times and then switch the polarity. You can use a cheater plug to do this.
Ummm, methinks you are conflating two different "polarities." One (the one with the cheater plug) has to do with power connections and the fact that, in North America at least, AC power is delivered with one leg "hot," the second leg "neutral" and the third leg "ground." "Neutral" is tied into "ground" at the power box in your house. Sometimes, because of internal wiring of equipment, flipping the neutral and the ground will improve the sonics.The other "polarity," has to do with the audio signal; so, that can be done at the source, or even at the speaker outputs. And some amplifiers or preamplifiers reverse signal polarity. I think the thread was about signal polarity, a somewhat more controversial subject than power polarity.
I agree here, with the caveat that it really depends on the speakers.SOme speakers have the drivers out of phase (like Maggies) because of the crossover design and on those speakers it is impossible to hear much of a difference, no matter how resolving they are.
This could be why there are those who do not hear the effect, while other vehemently do.
...I can hear the effect. They are time and phase aligned.
Harry
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