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Received all five of these the other day and have played them over the last two days...and I must say I am tremendously underwhelmed.
I find only the "New York Time" disk to be first class jazz, with the Dave Hazeltine "Manhattan" disk interesting on a few tracks. The remainder isn't even interesting "background" jazz IMO.Well, you say, how about the sound? Doesn't Chesky's sound redeem the disks. Unfortunately, even if that were possible, it isn't the case here. The sound, recorded in a church, is recorded too distant from the players so the "up front" sound is too echoey (a problem with many Chesky disks) and the rear ambience contributes very little...not even helping make the front soundstage more dimensional, which is usually the case (in fact, it is so non-consequential in this respect that I am intriqued to find out why).
All in all, I consider the money spent on these disks wasted, except again for the "New York Time" disk.
Follow Ups:
Tom Conrad, who, incidentally, has also written for Stereophile, was not too excited about the one he reviewed. I don't remember the specifics, except that he did comment on the poor sound. I haven't bought a Chesky jazz CD in years, but I remember the ones that I heard in the past were very musically "bland". I also was not a big fan of the sonics back then.
- http://jazztimes.com/reviews/cd_reviews/detail.cfm?article_id=17362§ion=Eighty-Eights&issue=200610 (Open in New Window)
Not quite sure why the disparity on this recording versus the other discs I have. I believe the sessions were recorded in the same place with the same techinque. Perhaps it was the specific drum set utilized??????????I will eventually sell this specific recording and don't believe I'll listen to it again before that.
....I am not entirely sure yet but I can't escape the feeling that you are somewhat down on this disc Robert :-) Did you pay full price perhaps ...? :-)Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course and whether you like this or not is entirely up to you. I think this disc is very good musically and very analog sounding from a recording perspective. The drums on the first two tracks are used with brushes mostly and on track 3 for example they are more clearly audible in the mix, also because they switched to sticks. Overall I did not find them so objectionable and in fact quite well integrated with the overall feeling of the session.
What is it about the drum sound that invoked such an emphatic reaction from you. You have not explained that to us. Instead you just gave us your indignation, but not much of an explanation. Inquiring minds want to know.
Thanks
Jw
Same place, same regarding technique. I don't know what drum set was utilized on either and also what the positioning was but I'd have to surmise each was different.TAS describes the brushes and cymbals on West of 5th to be top notch whereby one would have a hard time finding recordings to match with respect to that. I agree.
Do you feel that if we were there live listening to "Manhattan", would this recording be a good representation of the sound we heard?
The drums are too distant and weakly recorded. I find myself reaching for the remote to raise the volume.Listen to track 6 with regard to the drums.
Again, I'd take most any Evans live recording over this (strictly for sound reproduced) and most of the ones I have aren't SACDs. I understand Manhattan isn't in that setting and a church is much different but it doesn't explain the disparity I detect with West of 5th when listening to that recording. Maybe my equipment has something to do with it.
I forget which other magazine I read that reviewed "Manhattan". They placed an emphasis on the drums and the recorded sound being less than stellar but still gave the recording 5 stars. Go figure!!
...and I would take a bet that if you would be able to listen to it on my system you would not have the same reaction. I listened to West just before and for sure there are differences in recording. Manhattan is louder for starters and the piano/bass on Manhattan do indeed stand out more than the drum kit. In my view not to the extend as you obviously feel it does in your system. On West there is a little more balance between the piano, bass and drums. My APL Denon does bring out the drumkit on Manhattan in a believable fashion.In summary, I see what you mean and thank you for the explanation. We may have system and sensitivity differences here.
I have two of these discs, "New York Time" and "West of Fifth." Without regard to their musical merits, which is debatable, I'd have to say that these are not discs I would consider reference quality.I find the jazz listenable, just generally pedestrian. However, I am no great expert in the area of jazz music per se, and I would readily defer to others on this point.
I find "New York Time" to be somewhat better recorded than "West of Fifth." On the latter, the piano has a noticeably damped quality, as though the hammers are covered with cotton balls. I hate it when the piano has this muffled quality. The bass violin seems to lack focus as well. On the other hand, the drum kit seems to predominate at times, and I found this somewhat annoying, since the other instruments were, by contrast, so recessive.
"New York Time" is the better of the two recordings. Yet, I find it a tad on the reserved side as well. The overall balance of instrumental presentation is better: even so, the piano and bass are a bit on the reticent side, and, once again, I find the drum kit overly agressive. I want to turn up the volume on the bass and, especially the piano, and turn down the sax, and especially the drums.
Could be a set-up issue, in terms of where the musicians were placed. But this seems to me to be a very rudimentary kind of thing which should not have been overlooked. Perhaps it wasn't. I may be just taste.
With regard to minimalist mic'ing techniques mentioned in this thread, I am reminded of an extraordinary jazz recording label whose discs are not widely distributed, CIMP records. I do not believe they record for SACD. But I a few of their redbook CD's, and the sonics are absolutely sensational. But, be forewarned: the music is on the edgy side. They describe themselves as an "avant guard" jazz label. And I have to admit, they are a bit too far advanced for this listener. I quit after three, I think. But I still sometimes use thier old Roswell Rudd as a demonstation disc -- it has an absolutely fabulously well-recorded drum solo.
A reference recording in both multichannel and 2 channel....
If you have that one. The first two tracks especially.
Sorry - Don't have that one. Have West of 5th, New York Time and Mysterious Shorter.
I enjoy the music on West of 5th as well and think the clarity of the tone of the instruments is excellent.I do have one question/concern however regarding the imaging produced from the "single point microphone". On track 3 for example the basic soundstage on the 2 channel SACD layer consist of the piano just left of center and the bass to the right. The percussion seems to be spread out over the entire soundstage with the ride cymbal to the far left and the drums just right of center. If Chesky’s approach is to create a realistic soundstage I don’t understand this as I’ve never heard anything live where different parts of the drum kit show up on opposite sides of the piano! Maybe I am missing something. Your thoughts?
It's just the microphone pick-up method. Because the mike picks up sound from 360 degree's, the drumset comes at it feom what amounts to 3 sides. Thus the "spread out" sound you're refering to. Natural? Probably not. Ture to the recording and mike setup? Absolutely.
John Crossett____________________________
It sounds like English, but I can't understand a word you're saying.
....listen to "Swing Live" to hear what proper imaging with the same single-point mic sounds like.My guess is the mic was in a position where it was picking up reflections off of a chancery, pulpit, or something that was messing up the imaging. Good mic placement is essential to a good recording, and these Chesky's don't show much in that department.
Harry
that the drum set used was bigger than the simple snare, bass, cymbal used on Swing Live too. I bigger kit would be more spread out, therefore widening the sound.Seriously, every recording technique is a series of tradoffs. You apparently don't car for Chesky's. I do, because I can overlook the negative points and concentrate on their strong ones. To each their own.
John Crossett____________________________
It sounds like English, but I can't understand a word you're saying.
Focus on the drums on Manhattan. I'm selling this recording! It doesn't have anything to do with not caring for Chesky. It is this disc!!!
Are you kidding us? This is some of the best stuff Chesky has done. Great performances and terrific sonics.
These are from yesteryear and most of the ones I have are remastered but not SACDs.
And I have all 6 discs (including the John Hicks, Buster Williams, Louis Hayes disc (who's name escapes me) that hasn't been officially released yet - picked it up at CES. It's an excellent example of what three compatable musicians - all of an era - can do when gien the chance to record what they want.All sound very good. And I love Traffic. Coryell, Bailey & White are all in superb form on this mostly fusion set. I agree that is very good too.
But I guess you can't please all audiophiles all the time - or in this case even some of the time. All I know is that they please me, and I want as amny more as the Chesky brother are willing to record.
John Crossett____________________________
It sounds like English, but I can't understand a word you're saying.
..his teens during the 50's and twenties in the '60's, I grew up with the modern jazz era, and the stuff on these disks to me is insipid, uninspired, and second-rate jazz compared to work by Miles, Mingus, Gillespie, Mulligan, etc. Or even the farm teams of that era.Moreover, it isn't just comparing the past. It's comparing quality. Just two years ago, I heard Wynton with three other young musicians in a small nightclub in Northampton, MA and even as a new and admittedly experimental group, they put anybody on these disks to shame with their originality, spontenaity, and sheer musicianship. Almost all the compositions were new; few were standards. And yet they delivered quality jazz at the level of those 50's legends.
My conclusion is that Chesky not only botched the recording, they did nothing right to catch a vibe.
Harry
At least with these disks Chesky has finally brought some of today's top jazzmen with new work into the SACD format. John Abercrombie, Eddie Gomez, Nicholas Payton, Hank Jones, Christian McBride.... Had this happened earlier (instead of endless SACD back-catalog reissues and so-called "audiophile" jazz by third-string performers) perhaps the SACD format would have found a sustaining audience of discriminating, affluent buyers interested in new music. Instead the format is a dead letter for all but classical fans. Got to hand it to Chesky, these are probably the only SACD hybrid titles you can actually find at your local record store (if indeed you can find your local record store...)
In no particular order:Ray Brown
Oscar Peterson
Dave Brubeck
Milt Jackson
Jack Dejohnette
Stanley Clark
Al Foster
Jacques Loussier
George Shearing
John Clayton
Kevin Mahogany
Christian McBride
Russell Malone
McCoy Tyner
Freddy Cole
John Pizzarelli
Michel Camillo
Tierney Sutton
Geri Allen
Monty Alexander
Ann Hampton Callaway
Hiromi
Spyro Gyra
Al DiMeola
Philip Bailey
Randy Brecker
Michael Brecker
Jaco Pastorious
Jaco Pastorious Big Band
Turtle Island Quartet
Manhattan Transferamong many others, are all on SACD releases, most recorded in DSD - and all would be surprised to be relegated to third-string performer status.
Best Regards,
To distinguish from back-catalog jazz releases on SACD (that most jazz collectors probably already have on fine-sounding vinyl) I meant that there is a shortage of NEW music except for "so-called "audiophile" jazz by third-string performers." Yes, some of the performers on your list have issued a new album or two on SACD, but others like Jaco would be surprised to hear they had done work of any kind in recent years...Regards,
Dave
I hope that you have his "Griot Liberte" SACD. This is a terrific, recent recording by Rudy Van Gelder. Music and sonics are very good.
But it's now on my short list. Thanks for the heads up.
John Crossett____________________________
It sounds like English, but I can't understand a word you're saying.
....do not include "West of Fifth". The full list: New York Time (as stated); Manhattan (as stated); Structures; Traffic; and Mysterious Shorter.Based on Robert Lang's review, I might like "West of Fifth" as well, since we agree on the performance quality of "New York Time".
Harry
See my thoughts at link below
Robert C. Lang
nt
I can't argue because I agree. It's sad too. I have had those older Chesky redbook discs with various tests for ten years I think. These recent discs have good fidelity but thats it. The recording techniques are not cutting it for me. I didn't love the old recording technique but the fidelity was nice. Now I almost abhor this recording setup. I have many good sound quality, poorly engineered audiophile recordings. Got the Junior Brown Tel-Arc? Nice fidelity, his vocal is right on but everything else is kinda weak. And on the later tracks where he does heavy electric git/steel his amp sounds like crap. He either had bad tubes from the start of the session or wasted one or some of them at the session. They just didn't show their weakness until he cranked the amp. I've seen him live, front row, I know what it should sound like. Any (elec) guitarist would hear that amp from the session for 5 seconds and know somethings wrong. Oh well......thank goodness for online reselling. Now I'm only out a little.
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