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In Reply to: Another Barber Tocatta Festiva SACD sighting posted by jdaniel on January 14, 2007 at 00:23:18:
This is good news. I only discovered the Barber “Toccata Festiva” three years ago or so (when it was released as a supplement to the Poulenc “Organ Concerto” on Linn. The Toccata Festiva quickly became the mainstay for me on the disc. Perhaps because I have no basis for comparison I found it almost faultless and am anxious to hear another interpretation and another recording of it. As it is it probably rates among the top ten in my collection with respect to “slam” factor. I have yet to hear a recording that does the organ at speed complete justice (the closest is the Widor “Mass Op. 36” on JAV Recordings) but “Toccata Festiva” is still very satisfying from that standpoint.I was a lot more critical of the Linn Records Poulenc “Organ Concerto” on the same disc. Perhaps because I am so much more familiar with it and have heard it live (2 rehearsals and a concert at Davies Hall). Plus I have several recordings of it including the Telarc Michael Murray version, (who I am almost sure was the organist for the Poulenc and Saint Saens at Davies). Anyway, once you have heard the Poulenc Concerto in a live performance you will *never* forget its indelible impact.
I found the Linn (Gillian Weir, organist) performance/recording of the Poulenc Concerto to be above average but not special. I found the performance to be too “brisk” for what I’m familiar with and in the process it lost drive and impact throughout. In many cases if one interpretation is slower or faster than another interpretation of a particular work they both can still feel “right” to me, but not in this case. I have never really warmed to the Weir performance, even though I have given it ample opportunity.
But perhaps the coup de grâce for me was the organ came up short with respect to ultimate power down low. For example, the last 3 minutes or so of the Concerto includes, a somewhat faint but *very* deep organ passage which is sustained continuously for well over 90 seconds. Because it is sustained it is far easier to gauge than a transient. On the Telarc recording on three systems I have listened to it that specific passage in the Poulenc seemingly causes a change of barometric pressure in the room much like what I remember happened at the live performance of this concerto I attended. It feels like a small earthquake. But was really spooky was that it seemed that something or someone was sneaking up from behind you in the room (in two channel mind you). I think I once read where this sustained note (on the Telarc recording) was at 23 HZ. The feeling (hearing was not so much an issue) was absolutely missing from the Linn recording even though the organ came across very authentically in other areas.
Robert C. Lang
Follow Ups:
"But perhaps the coup de grâce for me was the organ came up short with respect to ultimate power down low. For example, the last 3 minutes or so of the Concerto includes, a somewhat faint but *very* deep organ passage which is sustained continuously for well over 90 seconds. Because it is sustained it is far easier to gauge than a transient. On the Telarc recording on three systems I have listened to it that specific passage in the Poulenc seemingly causes a change of barometric pressure in the room much like what I remember happened at the live performance of this concerto I attended. It feels like a small earthquake."I love this type of sound. One of the biggest differences I heard between CD players and/or CD/SACD players (when I auditioned about 5 of them at home over the course of a year, was in their ability to articulate deep bass. The best and most striking by far, and able to change barometric pressure in the room as you say, was the Marantz SA14 v.2.
Since you and three other very kind people in No. California have offered to let me hear their wonderful systems and compare LP, CD, SACD 2 channel and surround, I've been putting together a list of what I would like to bring; recordings that have stood out above the rest in different areas:
To demonstrate imaging and soundstaging of large-scale orchestral music I would bring the EMI Boult Vaughan Williams Sea Symphony on '69 LP--its huge soundstage, deep organ pedals and perfectly set choir behind the orchestra always amazes me. It would be fun to compare it the the Telarc VW with Spano, or the Telarc Berlioz Requiem.
For string "honesty" I'd bring a really fun one: an old Westminster XWN mono of the Schubert String trio with the Vienna Arts Quartet. I play this one for friends and the tangible nature of the string sound, plus imaging that allows one to walk around the trio in the room, so to speak, is astonishing. Perhaps compare it to the Praga Ravel quartet SACD in surround?
For deep, quick bass, and bass so deep it changes the barometric pressure in the room, I'd go for the Dutoit Respighi Pines of Rome on Lp: the organ enters with a quiet bass note in the middle of the final march. I'm pretty sure I'm hearing the fundamental. I would also like to try the end of Saturn from the Planets whose organ pedal goes deep indeed.
What about digital Lp vs. CD? I have both the CD and Lp of Tennstedt's Mahler Symphony #8 and the Nonesuch CD and Lp of Barber's Knoxville, with Upshaw. It would be interesting to discover what exactly destroys sting sound--the digital tape? (I'm beginning to doubt it), or the CD medium, or the mastering?
Two very very good CDs IMHO: a Conifer release of Ginastera's Pambi and a Collins release of Vaughan Williams Job. These sound good in just about *any* player and show what good CD mastering/recording can do. A so-so CD but a performance I can't live without: Sinopoli's Scriabin Poem of Ecstacy with the NYPO on DG. I would like to see what a good CD player can do with this.
For orchestral delicacy that remains astonishingly coherent and "all of a piece, (I know, we're getting subjective here), I would use the lp of Ravel's Piano Concerto for the Left Hand, and start at the point at which the music goes into "1" (a quick 6/8 march towards the end).
Lp vs. SACD? I'd bring the Berlioz/Munch Requiem on Soria and compare it to the recent SACD release of the same recording. I have a hunch the SACD detangles the Tuba Mirum info better than the Lp. We'll see.
In any case, it will all be fun; I wonder if there are too many variables to make any "real" distinctions that could be applied to each format in every case across the board.
To do the comparisons you want to do there are a number of high-end places in northern California that have, for example Rockport/EMM Lab set ups (or something similar). That's how I have been able to make similar comparisons in the past.
Robert C. Lang
By the way, I just submitted comments to SA-CD.net (under reviews) about the Linn Poulenc SACD in which I reference you (positive of course).
You are certainly welcome to come by and enjoy music. I often listen for hours at a time. But I don't (no longer) do "comparisons" or "shoot-outs". It's too much work and takes the fun out of listening. Also, as per my Inmate Systems description my system currently "favors" SACD over vinyl (although two-channel and multi-channel are both set up to show their best). However, since I recently (well sort of) acquired several hundred jazz Lps I am motivated to close the SACD/vinyl divide. When I do I will update my Inmate System description.
You mention ****"deep, quick bass****". That's where the Poulenc Organ Concerto differs markedly from the other recordings you mentioned. The bass is "deep", but in the passage I mentioned it is not "quick". On the Telarc CD the 23 Hz note lasts continuously for 90 seconds! I think that presents a special, unique challenge for playback systems, particularly for reasonably priced vinyl systems. In the Linn recording that note should begin right about 19 minutes, 22 seconds into the performance. It never happens.
But with regard to very low bass in general (not the singular Poulenc experience), I have found that Lp, CD and SACDs all excel (as far as they go) at the deepest frequencies. They all get an "A" in that department with respect to "realism" (as I perceive it) with respect to "potential". I give digital the edge in that it brings that potential of very low bass to the masses, and because the potential for dynamic range, the differences between the most quiet passages and the loudest passages, is more readily achieved and more readily available. And with a digital player you have access to reproducing these deep passages at a much lower entry-level cost for the source player. I give SACD multi-channel an even greater edge because it brings to the table more real estate (speakers) and science to better able to pull off these difficult passages.
Robert C. Lang
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"The Toccata Festiva quickly became the mainstay for me on the disc. Perhaps because I have no basis for comparison I found it almost faultless and am anxious to hear another interpretation and another recording of it."Again, if you still do CD, I recall seeing a few of the Cedille productions of this work, (with the Chicago Festival Orchestra?), at Ameoba, but it's in the "organ" bin, not in the Barber. Both orchestra and organist have a better feel for Barber's rhythms.
I'm sure that there are a million exceptions, but over the years I have found that even lesser known (or not known at all) US regional bands or orchestras can often (not always) perform works of American composers with a "better feel" than even the brand name orchestras from across the oceans. With American compositions the local orchestras can (should?) have an innate vernacular feel that often says, "I've lived it". Of course, I m sure it works the other way around.
Robert C. Lang
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