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68.183.1.27
In Reply to: Re: My first SACD in over a year: the Channel Fischer Mahler 2nd. posted by Perigo on January 2, 2007 at 00:50:49:
>Will there ever be a format and delivery system
>that surpasses good vinyl?"It exists since 1999, its name is SACD."
In response to the above two posts: Yes, it existed from 1955 to about 1960. It was called two-track tape. The format was superceded by stereo LPs and 4-track tape. To hear these 50-year-old tapes is to marvel at the quality of sound The analog sound has an ineffable quality not yet equaled on digital. The Fischer Mahler 2nd SACD is a very fine sounding recording with string sound as good as it gets with digital. But analog string sound is better. You never find anyone singing the praises of a digital recording of a string quartet or solo guitar. The instruments are too exposed, and there is no grand climax with full orchestra, chorus, and organ to cover this up and impress.
Follow Ups:
I beg to differ about chamber pieces. The Parkanyi Quartet's recording of Ravel and Debussy from Praga is on HP's super disk list (and he hardly ever lists chamber music). A user on sa-cd.net advised crawling over broken glass to get the Prazak's recording of the Schubert Quintet (again on Praga), and it does indeed sound sumptuous on my humble system. I've read praise for the purity of tone (and holographic imaging) in the Mozart Quintets by Fine Arts on Lyrinx. Then there are the Beethoven cello sonatas on Channel Classics, which some seem to regard as one of the most realistic recordings they've ever heard. And I believe there has been praise for the sound of Julia Fischer's solo Bach on Pentatone.Nevertheless, the tonal quality of the best LPs on my $1500 analog front end is more natural than I have yet to hear from any digital system. The best string tone I've heard so far from an SACD was on the Pines of Rome from RCA Living Stereo, which, of course, was recorded in analog!
I'm still eager to hear Robert Lang's suggestion for best string tone, since he's got Meitner equipment.
I don't own any of the chamber music discs that you mentioned. I have sampled a fair number of Channel Classics and Praga discs. They are a mixed bag, like any companies offerigs. But my house is overflowing with tapes, LPs, RBCDs, SACDs, and DVD-Audio discs, so I need to be very selective in purchasing. I was disappointed with the Praga discs I bought, but I chose them for repertory. My grandparents were born in what is now the Czech Republic, so I would love to support my compatriots. I grew up listening and playing classical music. So I approach recordings from the musical side, not the technical side. And I trust my ears.We are in agreement that the best string sound is still from analog sources. SACDs do a better job with strings than CDs, although I supect many SACDs are mastered from lower rez digital sources. Even Telarc does this. I listen with Quad 63 electrostatic speakers with subwoofers. They are limited in dynamics, but very accurate in timbre. That's what I'm writing about here. I will leave the discussion of thundering climaxes to others.
It is definitely tough to argue with the sound quality virtues of two-track (reel-to-reel?) tape. I certainly would not try to make an argument. (Although I thought it was a significant player, albeit, not in terms of sales, long past 1960s into the seventies). In fact, some of the absolute best sounding SACDs that I own are transfers from two-track tapes. Arguably the best sounding vocal that I own, regardless of format, is a SACD from Audioquest, Mighty Sam McClain's "Soul Survivor" that was transferred from two track tape recorded at 30 ips. I would *love* to hear the 30 ips original tape.Regarding the strings of the Fischer Mahler 2nd, I too, believe I have heard better on some vinyl and certainly two-track tape. (I had an opportunity to listen to master recordings of the Seattle Symphony Orchestra over a two period about 18 months ago). But guess what, I believe I have heard better strings on other *DSD* recordings than what I heard on the Fischer Mahler. I found the Mahler 2nd to be, in total, to be a *wonderful* recording. The strings were excellent as were other sections of the orchestra. But I didn't walk away with the impression that they were the best strings I heard on digital or analog (vinyl). But I'm sure I have heard better "this" (horns, for example) and better "that" (timpani, for example) or for example, better depth of soundstage, etc., on other DSD recordings, even though all these area were, indeed, excellent. What did it for me for this disc, with respect to sound quality, was the synergy of the whole production, the teamwork of the orchestra, engineers, editors, etc.
And while the Fisher Mahler recording, to me, was extremely good in all areas, one area that I do believe it exceeded any other I have heard for a full-length composition was in the area of dynamic range (the difference between the very quietest passages and the very loudest) for an orchestral recording. And while jdaniel took issue with the stupendous climaxes of the Mahler 2nd, and I in turn took issues with some of his issues (smile) he, nevertheless, made a valid point. It ain't perfect; for vinyl or SACD (especially two-channel). There is still work to be done to adequately capture such colossal orchestral energy. But vinyl has been trying to get it right for more than half a century and has maxed out. It's, in part, a learning experience and SACD (I've never heard DVD-A in a serious environment), still is in its infancy, and has a shot to make things better.
I, for one, do not believe that two-channel SACD can make significantly audible improvements over the best SACDs currently out there. But SACD multi-channel can, and *already* has done just that. All one has to do is to listen to the Mahler Fischer in multi-channel, then listen to the same performance in multi-channel
Robert C. Lang
Correction to last sentence:"All one has to do is to listen to the Mahler Fischer in two-channel, then listen to the same performance in multi-channel"
Robert C. Lang
I most surely would like to know. Thanks!
I am certainly not prepared to enter a specific recording in a "string contest" because as a rule I don't listen that way, but I just thought of some comments I wrote a few months ago about a recording of the Fry Street Quartet that reminded me of then recent live experiences. See comments below:
Robert C. Lang
Actually several recordings immediately come to mine, including some DSD recordings released early on, that I believe sound as good or better than the wonderful strings on Fischer's Mahler 2nd. But before I offer them up for "string scrutiny" I will listen to them again.The point is while the strings in Fischer's Mahler 2nd obviously sound superb (you can't have a superb orchestral recording without superb sounding strings, in my opinion). I did not get up and say "man those are the best strings I've heard on a DSD recording". They are most likely not. You may recall (see my comments at SA-CD.net) or in this forum when I first offered my comments on this SACD, I did single out (or I should have) the "low strings" as being top tier (although not necessarily *the best* I've heard).
For one thing, strings are tough to capture properly. I staunchly believe that there are so many more important variables (such as the hall and mic placement/levels) to getting it "right" aside from "DSD" or "vinyl" or "PCM" (latter day PCM), etc. I mean if vinyl was a main ingredient for the reproduction of great sounding strings why do so many vinyl recordings have bad soundings strings?
Vinyl buffs won't agree but vinyl does not have the copyright on reproducing great strings. Further, I believe the convention wisdom that says vinyl has the "corner" on great strings is a myth. I simply don't hear it when I compare my multi-channel collection to a live orchestral setting. I believe that the "air/ambience", rear channel information or whatever good multi-channel SACD brings to the table, most of which I don't understand, is *far* more important to making strings sound more like strings than vinyl or DSD. And, of course, multi-channel is no exception. Variables such as mic placement, hall, speakers, etc. are more important.
Robert C. Lang
Try the Sibelius SACD on Linn records. Delicious.Kal
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