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Wow! What a staggering performance! It starts off being merely monumental but over 80+ minutes relentlessly ups the ante to astonishing. The only ingredient missing at the end was the applause. And yours truly provided that for Ivan Fischer and the Budapest Festival Orchestra.Without getting into the nuances of the performance, of which I’m not qualified to do anyway, I have to say (admit) that with Mahler’s 2nd Symphony I’m a outer movement kind of guy. Over the years I have learned to enjoy the inner movements, but the real draw are the unmitigated slams of the outer movement. But with this performance I was riveted throughout. The Andante maestoso (second movement) is done with endearment, concern, and passion. And I did something I have *never* done. I enjoyed a repeat, back to back, of the 4th (soloist) movement. I'm not qualified to say that this movement is definitive but the previous movements really set it up wonderfully.
The orchestral slams were, of course, expected. I am familiar enough with this symphony not to be surprised. But nevertheless be prepared. What you have in store are some of the most awesome, but *cleanly* recorded slams in recorded history (must be). There are some real rim rockers here.
The recording is absolutely first rate by any measure I am familiar with. The soloist and the chorus are vividly recorded and so well placed on the stage. Regarding the multi-channel, Channel Classics has learned or listened to criticism about underutilization of the rear channels. They are still unobtrusive (well almost always) but serve to place this regarding above other multi-channel and two channel SACDs they have done that I am familiar with.
But that brings something else to mind. If I am not mistaken I recall upon hearing this performance live that in at least one movement the trumpets (or brass) was off to the side or even behind the audience. If that was the case that was not audible in the multi-channel presentation. So, apparently all performers in this production were on stage.
Other than that I have two areas of dissatisfaction, neither performance related. I mentioned how drawn I was to the second movement. Well, just as I was *really* getting into the performance the SACD player stops and I have to get up and switch discs. For me that was an unpardonable interruption. I’m fairly certain that the CD layer that cannot readily accommodate more than 80 minutes caused this disruptive split. I wished that this disc were a non-hybrid SACD.
Another thing that would have been nice touch if Channel Classics would have put a “track” in the middle of the last movement where the glorious chorus enters.
But make no mistake about it this is a triumphant performance and recording.
Now off to listen to my new Vanska Beethoven 9th.
Robert C. Lang
Follow Ups:
During the recording and editing process, the discussion came up a number of times about the pauze after the first movement and the break in cd's. Ivan Fischer does not do the pauze during concerts and felt that if a listener at home felt it neccessary, then by all means press the remote. The break for the cd's had again to do with the technical side whether we could get the movements from 2 to 5 on one disc with SACD.
There have been recordings in the past which were getting very close to the limit of data and I was forced to lower the dynamics so that I get it on the disc. I did not want to do any concession on this recording. Even during the recording, I was pulling my hair trying to make it all fit. During the initial rehearsal getting the levels set is one thing, then during the recording they always play louder! Especially the percussion....
A real challenge
So in the end, It was my decision to break after the second movement.by the way I saw in my earlier email that I should have gone back and corrected a couple of errors- it should read ' the complete data for stereo and multichannel is around 13 gigabits (and not 1).
But please remember, DSD technology is not the same as pcm for knowing what will or not fit on a single disc. There is some work being done however to create a better lossless compression so that we can get more 'minutes' onto a disc.
I read a thread about our Christmas Oratorio. Well I just spent my whole christmas recording and editing the B minor Mass to come out the end of January. Also in cooperation with the Catherijn convent museum here in Holland who supplied the artwork. A very musical Christmas to be sure.
greetings
Jared Sacks
I have plenty of Mahler Seconds in my collection including MTT and Slatkin in SACD. The Fischer is the best of them all both in performance and recording. I love the way Fischer digs into this music. It's exciting, exhilarating. Interpretively, I would say Fischer is closer to Slatkin than MTT.The sonics are phenomenal! I love the way the recording blooms in the low end - like you hear in a concert hall. Plus, the dynamics are outstanding. Be prepared to be rocked as others have said. No system clipping in mine at the big climaxes :-).
Mark
And yes, the "orchestral slam dunks" as I like to call them, have a shear magnificence that can only be excceeded in the concert hall, in my experience. And at speed all components of the playback system better be full ready for the mammoth workload at hand.
Robert C. Lang
How does this recording compare to Slatkin's 2nd on Telarc DSD with the St. Louis orch?db
just a small point of clarification- the slatkin is not "DSD." it was recorded in the late 70s, 2-channel using the soundtsream system- definitely a PCM master, albeit a very good one.
The Telarc Slatkin is definitely not an *original* DSD recording. (I have the vinyl and the subsequent CD). And yes, the term "DSD" has been a source of confusion since at least 1999 (when I bought my first SACDs). Many early purchasers thought the 1950s Szell recordings were original "DSD". But Telarc and every other SACD manufacturer still regard and refer to transfers of analog or PCM digital masters as Digital Stream Digital (DSD) recordings, just not "original" DSD recordings.I have some of the Telarc PCM Transfers and they say "50kHz Master Transfer to DSD" prominently plastered on the cover. The "DSD" emblem is placed front and center all over the liner notes and on the disc itself.
But yes, the bottom line is your clarification is warranted.
Robert C. Lang
Although I agree that Fischer is a very good one indeed, Slatkin is totally different level of detail, nuance, and insight. If it is on Telarc LPs, sonics are comparable to SACD.
Ah. The Slatkin performance is very special to me personally. Years ago after several years of almost force feeding myself on Mahler, tying to "make" myself like that composer, it all "came together" with this performance of the Mahler 2nd. On that day I "found" Mahler! In fact, I remember at the conclusion of my first listening to that piece on my Ohm F speakers driven by a monster SAE amplifier my knees being weak. Seriously.But that was years ago. And for whatever reason I have not listened to it in years and would not dare comment on the performance except that for me it was superb. I *must* revisit it. So, I have not heard the SACD version.
I do recall that during that era, while I enjoyed Telarc recordings very much I became weary of the overly pronounced bass. I found it way out of proportion to reality, and I *love* bass to this day. The huge bass modules that are part of my system reaffirm this. I can't say for sure if the Slatkin disc fell victim to this malady. But in any event, it is unlikely that the Slatkin *recording* could in any way match the Fischer. The multi-channel alone would be the coup de grace. It simply raises the bar.
Robert C. Lang
"http://www.sa-cd.net/showthread/17683//y?page=first"
I just bought this recording as well as MTT/SFO hope to try them later today.
I am still in two channel mode and hope to move up to MC one of these days. I have almost every M2 recording that is/was available and none are good enough at least to my taste, the search goes on for the perfect recording, hopefully this one will do it.Vahe
nt
I like the performance as well. The recordings, I agree, is smooth and dynamic, but it's very demanding on the system, especially the fifth mov't. My system clipped a few times in the loudest passage.....
Robert, I think the "off-stage" brass in the final movement normally happens behind the orchestra (ie they are meant to sound far-away) which probably leaves it open to interpretation as well as the logistics of the venue.
I have been waiting for a good price. Perhaps I'll pull the trigger sooner though as most everywhere I've read leads me to know this will be money very well spent. What's more is I don't have a hi-rez recording of the 2nd either and I've put this one off a bit too long considering it's a winner!I can say however that it wasn't going to be without some concern regarding the rear channels. I'm very glad you addressed this for this particular recording based upon others from this label. I'm very thankful as 99% of the folks on this forum I believe listen in two channel so there aren't very many opinions expressed on the multichannel track of recordings. Much appreciated!!
I'll be listening to the Vanska tomorrow night. I think we will be in for a treat with that one as well!! :)
.
Robert,Thanks for a good review. How does this compare with MTT/SFO performance live and/or SACD recording of the 2nd?
Thanks,
--woodstock
I have not listened to the MTT/SFO performance SACD so I can't comment on the performance. Although having other SACDs including the MTT/SFO Mahler 6th, I think I can safely say that Fisher Channel Classics is in a different class with respect to stark realism of the recording, especially dynamic range. Fisher Channel Classics simply raises the bar.
Robert C. Lang
The Fischer is a truly great performance and recording of this work. I loved his Mahler 6th (which I believe you also own), and this new 2nd is every bit as good. I hope Channel has plans to record him and his superlative orchestra in the rest of the Mahler symphonies. I had previously thought the Kaplan recording on DG SACD was the best-sounding recording of this work, and while it is still very impressive in many ways, the Fischer trumps it in terms of naturalness of timbres and overall smoothness. And Fischer also wins in interpretation.As you mentioned, it's too bad that Channel decided to put the disc break after the second movement. Mahler had expressed that there be a long pause between the first and second movements, and that's how most record companies split the discs (when the recording has to take up 2 discs, of course).
Russell
On SA-CD.net, Jared Sachs, Channel Classics producer, wrote that Ivan Fischer does not like to record complete sets. See his December 5, 2006 post (his moniker is "channel").
It would have been good to have Fischer's thoughts on the other symphonies, as his 2 recordings so far are standouts in a hugely overcrowded field. I do hope we'll get a least a couple more. Thanks for the info, though.Russell
I do understand his apparent reasoning as presented. That is, there may be some Mahler symphonies that Fisher just does not want to do (he may not "feel" them as much). And/or there may other works that he *really* wants to tackle. I'm glad that Fischer added to the SACD inventory an interpretation of Bartok's "BlueBeard Castle", a Hungarian composition that he probably really wanted to do but may not have had time to do if he was doing all Mahler. See my comments of my impressions at SA-CD.net.(Just as a fleeting thought, has San Francisco had other releases other than Mahler since they began that cycle? I don't know).
In any event, Fischer and the Budapest Festival Orchestra seem to be really on a roll. And the recording engineers at Channel Classics and Philips have caught up with Fischer's outstanding performances.
Robert C. Lang
But I'm surprised how many recordings put the break between the 2nd and 3rd movements, instead of between 1&2, where Mahler wanted it (and where it's needed). The only reasons I can think of are a combination of cluelessness and a vestige of the LP era, when companies tried to equalize side lengths for sonic reasons.Bill
Thanks for the correction on this issue down below. I agree if the perfomance *had* to be broken up that it be done between the 1st and 2nd movements. It looks like this performance is right at 80 minutes. So, perhaps it was possible to put the CD/SACD layers on a single disc. But perhaps it would have been too much of a squeeze.
Robert C. Lang
80 minutes is certainly possible. I have a recording, RBCD only, with Mehta conducting the VSO, which runs 81:11.Bill
Dear Mahler 2nd listeners,Since this thread has to do with how and why of putting the break between the 2nd and the third movement I would like to put my bit into this.
SACD does not work the same way as a pcm. PCM is indeed the sum of total time that can be put onto a disc. SACD is a DVD technology. That said we can only put on a total amount of data. This is 4.75 gigabits minus some extra metadata. (pq codes and text.
Actually the complete dat for stereo and multichannel can be around 1 gigabits. But the last phase for the authoring is putting the two projects through a sort of 'winzip' which brings the data down to under 4.75.
I was able to get the Mahler 6 to one cd. The Mahler 2nd was just not going to work whatever I did. Especially with the dynamics involved.
I have brought out recordings that are indeed 78 minutes because it was a mozart sonata that just had even dynamics.I agree that I could very easily have put a extra track in the last movement so that one could easily get to the choral section. Sorry! I too get frustrated with the slow 'fast forward' on sacd players....
There have been some comments about why we did not fill up the cd with more music. Do these people realize the amount of work, energy, money, etc. just to get the 2nd on to disc and then still ask for more because there is room on the disc???
It has been satisfying to see the positive remarks to the performace of the Budapest Festival Orchestra and Ivan Fischer. He has been working with 'his' orchestra for the last 20 years and has truly built this up to be one of the top orchestra today. It has been an honour for me to work with them.
Greetings
Jared Sacks
Thank you so much for your comments on the Mahler 2. Please see my comments of Fischer performances of Mahler and Bartok on SA-CD.net at link below.
Robert C. Lang
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