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In Reply to: Re: Comments-Bartok's "Bluebeard's Castle", Ivan Fischer Conducting posted by Kal Rubinson on November 27, 2006 at 07:52:12:
I suspect that it would be unlikely that many SACDs would considered "definitive" or say, among the top 5 available in the catalog that were recorded since, say 1982-3 (CDs debut in the US). I would think that we are lucky if most are "serviceable" to "very good", because it takes years for the really good performances to be displaced. I would hope that the Bartok "Bluebeard Castle" to be at least "good".Further among the 4000 SACDs available among all genres which ones are held out as being top tier?
But my question is not just rhetorical. I wonder what newly recorded SACDs are considered top of the heap or near top of the heap among often recorded classical compositions?
I will pick up the Fischer Mahler 2.
Robert C. Lang
Follow Ups:
Leaving aside the usual subjectivity caveat (as you say, so what?)and roaming the shelves with BBC, Penguin, and Gramophone sources filed away in the neurological Hard Drive, I would venture to suggest that there is an abundance of recently-recorded classical SACDs which can hold their own even among the most arduous of competition. Indeed, that is precisely why I was prepared to take the hi-rez plunge: with truck-loads of Karajans, Barbirollis, Jochums, Kubeliks etc., etc., I had zero need for a second-rate conductor directing a third-rate orchestra just to elicit a shattering dynamic range and a greatly extended frequency response!!A mere sample, therefore, arranged by label:
Praga:Tchaikovsky and Bartok Quartets (Parkanyi); Beethoven and Brahms Quartets (Prazak); Haydn and Martinu Quartets (Kocian)BIS: Bach Cantatas (Suzuki); Grieg Orchestral (Bergen/Ruud)
Hyperion: Almost anything by Robert King and King's Consort.
Telarc: Mozart Requiem (Atlanta/Runnicles); Nielsen #5 Cincinnati/Jarvi); Vaughan Williams #1 (Atlanta/Spano); Bach Suites (Boston B/Pearlman)
Linn: Shostakovitch #11 (Scottish/Lazarev); Britten Orchestral (Gould); Almost anything by Palladian Ensemble.
Channel: Beethoven 'Cello Sonatas (Wispelwey); Britten 'Cello Suites (Wispelwey); Vivaldi Op.4 (Podger); Ravel Piano Works (Lazic).
Alia Vox: Anything!! (i.e. Jordi Savall)
Pentatone: Schmidt #4 (Kreizberg); Prokofiev and Glazunov Violin Concertos (Fischer/Kreizberg); Stravinsky Dumbarton Oaks etc. (Jarvi)
Polygram/Universal: Bartok Duke Bluebeard (Fischer); Shostakovitch #7 (Gergiev); Tchaikovsky #6 (Gergiev); Mozart Piano Sonatas (Brendel); Mahler #9 (Chaiily); Lully Orchestral (Goebel); Rameau Orchestral (Minkowski)
Sony: Almost anything by Midori and Murray Perahia!!
And there's plenty more where these came from--not bad for a format just up and running and which gets many of its plaudits for reissues of Szell, Reiner, Dorati, Munch, Monteux etc.!!!
Good talkin' to ya, John.
P.S. Just seen your 'Membran Jazz' post. A rather more informed and detailed reply in the works!!
I truly appreciate your input and this list. Many of these I own (including, of course, Bartok Duke Bluebeard (Fischer). Many I don't have, but I will be adding some for sure. I certainly don't hold myself out as any sort of classical music sage but my experience with thousands of recordings and my having been a season ticket holder to one or more symphony orchestras for the past 25 years or so I find many of my SACDs to rank among the best (not necessarily *the* best) and most enjoyable I have heard during the digital era if not before.
Robert C. Lang
nt
Pretty much got a reply from lots of the classical music fans on this forum on what their specific viewpoint comes with pulling the trigger on SACD recordings considering what performances are available on CD and LP.One consideration on my part (and it is a big one IMHO) is that I listen in multichannel and that track is included on most classical SACDs. :)
...is right up there, in my opinion. In particular the first is outstanding IMO and the others at least "very good". Tempo is on the fast side, a bit like Kleiber...and the interpretations have a propulsive thrust that reminds me in some ways of some of Walter's work.The DSD recordings I think are excellent...a bit boxey and dry in the bass (that's the Barbicon where recorded, I understand) but otherwise outstanding...purely subjective, of course, but I consider it the most realistic recording reproduction of an orchestra I have..better than anything on Columbia, Phillips, or Channel Classics that I have heard (my Bis are all chamber, so can't comment on them). Dynamics are spectacular at times....Haitink uses the kettle drums in an unusually percussive way to accent certain sections of the readings.
These were recorded in concert during Fall 2005 and Spring 2006 in London during a cycle that received great acclaim in the Londaon press; the Orchestra just completed the same cycle during a week at Philharmonic Hall in NYC, again to great acclaim.
For my money, my best investment in SACD in over 200 disks.
Harry
A couple of things tipped the boat for me:1) A significant number of Classical labels were newly recording in PCM and then converting to SACD. The idea of owning a SACD player just to hear "converted" PCM pissed me off. What an expensive and silly long walk around the block.
2) Ordering from overseas for many items was just too expensive
3) (No fault of the well-meaning companies that kindly adopted SACD), how long would it take for definitive Classical recordings to show up on SACD?
4) I don't want to get into a format argument, but I discovered the best way to get "analog-like" sound was to go to the source: vinyl. (Several qualifications: a record cleaning machine of some sort is a must, EMI/Decca/London/early RCA and Mercury pressings and recordings--millions of them floating around--are for the most part small miracles of recorded sound, Philips and DG to a lesser extent, and here definitive performances abound.) After a year and a half I have absolutely no regrets.)I've literally not visited SA-CD.net in a year until a couple of weeks ago, and I'm delighted to see vast numbers of new titles from all different kinds of labels that have tweeked my interest again. A cursory look at new DVDA titles that have come out in the mean time--at least Classical--has made the format beyond irrelevant for me at this point. No offense, but I just can't gather the time nor the curiosity or strength to hear Marin Alsop's interpretations of Brahms. Sorry. In warmed over Naxos PCM no less, converted to SACD.)
Ivan Fischer's Mahler 2nd is on it's way, it will be heard in 2 channel stereo.
I prefer his recording of the 6th on SACD over the Fischer so I thought I'd wait to see how his 2nd stacks up.For now, I favor Klemperer's EMI Great Recordings of the Century for the 2nd over other performances of this classical work that I've heard. Essential IMHO!!
That's interesting about the Klemperer. I found the first mov't very rustic but the finale curiously "sensible." Bernstein on DG is my fav, when that pipe organ comes in for the first time, it *is* as if the universe is vibrating. Yes, an 8th from Zander as well as and 8th from MTT is still in the works. I've not heard any Zander, and I've always considered MTT very sensitive with musical scores, but always just short of sublime, as subjective assessment, I know. I've heard him many times live.Bummer is that I don't have surround anymore. There is no way I could afford mid-fi X's 5. I added Vandersteen center and rears with a Harmon Kardon amp for just them, coupled with a MuFi amp to power the L/R Vandy's. It all worked, but the visual lack of integration began to knaw on me.
* His Goldbergs are definitely top 5, and some prefer it to, say, both Gould versions.
* Bach Keyboard Concertos are up there.
* A case could be made for his Italian Concerto (on "Plays Bach")
* Chopin Etudes--definitely a contender.* Also, the Rene Jacobs Figaro on Harmonia Mundi. Possibly also Julio Cesare.
* Definitely some possibilities among the Suzuki Bach Cantatas.
No slam dunks here, but some contenders.
Jim Austin
If you simply ask, what SACD releases are considered top rank, you'd find some. By restricting it to "newly recorded", I think you'd have a tough time. But if you open it up to any SACD, you have:Beethoven 5 and 7 sym from Kleiber- always rated among the top
Sibelius violin concerto with Hiefetz- (also the rest of Heifetz on RCA)
Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra and MSPC from Reiner
Stravinsky's Rite of Spring from Boulez (Japanese SACD)and probably quite a few more on Everest and Mercury that I cannot recall right now. All this is highly subjective of course.
Taking advantage of it being on the shelf at a local Borders store. I'll more than likely buy it soon utilizing a Borders Rewards coupon and will definitely have gotten my money's worth considering all the times I've referred to it in the last few months! :)
Here is another book suggestion. Another type of reference guide is the Rough Guide to Classical Music 2nd edition. This is not so much a record guide, although they do recommend specific records, usually only one choice for every piece. But it is a well-organized overview of classical composers which includes some modern ones like Birtwistls and Saariaho. I find this book invaluable.Since my own Penguin guide dates back to 2002, I will probably pick up a new one as well.
Thank you. I understand that top tier performances could be found among the releases of SACD. Many of those, especially at the beginning of SACD, were hand picked *because* they were great performances and also sounded good.But there have now been hundreds of new SACD recorded in the last 6 years. How many of those (subjective, of course) rise to the top of those that have multiple recordings in their libraries? For example, there are *numerous* newly recorded Mahler symphonies on SACD. Kal and many others laud the Fischer Mahler 2nd. Were does it stack up compared to other CD recorded or released since 1983 (arbitrary date tied to the advent of CD in the US). I have limited to the digital era because to bring vinyl into the picture would make it even more impossible to make suggestions, however subjective.
I think this all has some relevance because for the last 4 years are so (most of the history of SACD) almost all newly recorded SACDs, especially classical, are multi-channel, which, accept it or not, is the on *real* distinquishing factor between SACD and CD. (I would bet 99% of consumers couldn’t tell the difference between a two channel SACD and CD) Multi-channel is really the only reason for SACD to exist from a marketing/growth standpoint.
Which brings me full circle back to Fischer's "Bluebeard Castle". I have heard only this account. Clearly, it is damn near impossible for it to be the "best" subjective or not. But is it "serviceable" or "good", or better. By almost all measures this is an excellent *sounding* recording. I think most ears (not all) will agree. You would think that an all-Hungarian cast of top caliber would also provide a damn good performance of a frequently performed Hungarian piece. But not necessarily so. Heck, it tough to find even a regional American orchestra to botch up "American in Paris". It is generally at "good".
That this is all subjective has never impeded opinions here in the past. I think its fun and enlightening.
Robert C. Lang
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