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In Reply to: I assume you're aware... posted by Jim Treanor on December 2, 2004 at 22:22:59:
One should be suspicious of any mods that are said to "closes the gap between the best CDs and SACDs..." Is this more a case where CD improved while SACD sound performance takes a few steps backwards? Perhaps while the mod attempts to "fatten" up the sound of CD to make it more palatable, but in the process adding euphonic colouration that impeded natural harmonics of DSD sources from blosoming fully? I would look for a mod that extends the performance gap of SACD over the CD.I am also surprised the author of this article didn't request for the addition of balanced outputs to be added since his Pass X1 clearly sounds best with balanced sources. He also missed out the fact that once DRC is changed to WIDERANGE, audio performance on all media improved greater still.
Follow Ups:
to neither praise nor damn something I haven't heard (now _there's_ something to be suspicious of), I can't comment or speculate on the specific effects of the mod. My point was simply to indicate that a 999 mod exists and someone had posted a review of same...just in case the original poster wanted to follow that up with the modder or the reviewer.I'd note, however, (and it should be no revelation to anyone who's kept up with mod posts on this board) that the "closes the gap" response isn't an uncommon initial reaction to a mod that improves both CD and SACD performance...especially when one hasn't heard CD's "ever sound so good". Thus it's not necessarily an artifact of euphonic fattening up or steps taken backward, but rather the perception of a more or less dramatic--and substantive--improvement in the quality of CD playback. At least that's been my experience with the mods I've heard.
--Jim
" to neither praise nor damn something I haven't heard "I think that we all would do better to keep that thought in mind more often...
The debate: (what does it take for SOTA redbook to equal SACD performance and at what level is SACD playback surpassed, - if at all by SOTA redbook), - is very interesting to me.
Necessarily, - there's going to be a big subjective, "as I hear it" qualification.
I really, really, like and have heard the Audio Aero Capitole II, with tweaks, at length, - and have "felt" that that system would better at least some SACD players. I get the feeling that no $1K or $2-$3K Universal player is going to play any format as good as the AA's redbook. But I haven't performed a shoot out either. (I also have heard DRAMATIC differences between certain player's SACD and redbook sections, - in which I sometimes suspect that the redbook section is purposely under-engineered in order to make the SACD section sound better: but I'm willing to admit that that could be paranoia on my part). I also need to remember that the CD is recorded in SACD, and those are not all created equal.
Wouldn't it be fun to compare some SOTA redbook with a crop of $3K - $4K SACD players, a maybe a $10K SOTA SACD too?
is this the real me, or a mere facsimile?
I sometimes suspect that the redbook section is purposely under-engineered in order to make the SACD section sound betterOccasionally posted; never substantiated.
Regards,
Geoff
It's the level of performance drop that is of concern to me.I don't think that it's unreasonable to assume/hope that the redbook performance of a $3K to $4K SACD player should equal the redbook performance of a pretty good $2k player, - none that I've heard do...
is this the real me, or a mere facsimile?
... at that time i couldn't care less about SACD (if anything, i would probably have preferred to support DVD-A as I already owned two DVD-A discs and have yet to own a single SACD due to my perception that it was a proprietary format unlikely to survive long). i know a few people who even today primarily use their xa777es as a cd player and seldom play sacds on it - they seem to think the price was worth it compared to cd-only players.looking at the design of this player, i don't think it has any design or performance compromises for cd playing - in other words, it seems to be as well designed as a pure cd player as it possibly could be at it's price point - the signal path for cd is separate from dsd all the way to the DAC, even to the inclusion of a very good digital filter that supports 0dBFS+ that is used only for cd playback.
There are much more expensive cd only players out there that do not handle 0dBFS+ (for example, apparently the burr brown digital filters, which are used in high end players like wadia and cary, do NOT support 0dBFS+). i liked the fact that sony cared enough about the issue to put in special effort to resolve it for a player primarily marketed as a m-ch sacd player.
Most audiophiles who frequent here are not ready to accept the sound of CD as what it is. They have a different definition of what "better" means.
... a friend of mine said to me the usual story "SACD is crap. doesn't sound as good as CDs."so i politely asked "in what way?" And I got the usual "velvet curtain" answer: "too soft, high frequencies are muffled and sound wrong, must be DSD ultrasonic noise blah blah blah"
i said "ok, show me." and he played some jazz material featuring lots of cymbals on a hybrid disc on his system.
to be sure, compared to the CD, the SACD did sound less harmonically rich, and less thrilling. however, i noticed that the "richness" of the cymbals on CD sounded artificial, almost like "ringing" artefacts from PCM playback, and in fact the sound on SACD was more detailed despite sounding less impressive.
my friend wouldn't buy this explanation until i dragged him to a musical instruments store, struck a real cymbal and said "there! that's the sound of a real, unamplified, cymbal. and it doesn't contain any of the artefacts that you hear (and like) on the cd that are missing on the sacd."
but guess what, he still prefers the rich sound on cd. it's what he's become used to, and that is his "reality."
even later still, i discovered he had bass management engaged the whole time. it was a denon player, and i think on this model DSD is converted to PCM when bass management is turned on.
but all SACD reproduction and recordings are NOT created equal...Some SACD recordings or SACD remasters from the orginal analog tapes can be bad.
Also, - there's CAN BE a huge difference between SACD decks.
IMO, - your average $1K price point SACD, - playing SACDs, - can't get close to a SOTA redbook only CDP like the Audio Aero. And, - the AA bests even some $6K players, - like the MF Trivista running SACD, - IMO.
My issue, - is the redbook section. I have to listen more to the Sony 777, - as I have heard the redbook section and felt at the time that it didn't stack up to my Arcam, the Ayre, the NAIM or some of the other well regarded $2K to $3K players. I have compared the MF Trivista redbook section to my Arcam directly, as well as the Krell and Marantz, - and the Arcam blew those away, - quite decidedly in my mind...
is this the real me, or a mere facsimile?
absolutely agree, it all depends on the recording. i have some cds that sound decidedly better than the sacd equivalent.did you listen to the sony 777es or xa777es? two completely different players, with two completely different designs for cd playback ... the 777es converts PCM to DSD, the xa777es uses a completely different architecture.
my xa777es sounds better than all the arcams i have listened to. i can't find any cd player better than it that's lower in price. the denon dvd-a1 sounds slightly better, but it's around the same price. the linn unidisk sounds much better, but at twice the price.
i didn't really like the MF trivista all that much either. haven't heard the krell - that should be interesting.
I'll have to remember that.....Maybe that's the way I should go. I was thinking about getting a player that also did DVD video as I don't have one. I don't care about DVD video quality because I rarely watch movies or TV, and have an old crappy Sony CRT. But, - I thought that it would be a bonus and save space on the rack by not having two units. But, - maybe I should get a Toshiba 3960 just to save the space and get a better audio player...
Thanks again,
Cheers,
is this the real me, or a mere facsimile?
The original poster Soridman was refering to players, not individual discs when he wrote:" (I also have heard DRAMATIC differences between certain player's SACD and redbook sections, - in which I sometimes suspect that the redbook section is purposely under-engineered in order to make the SACD section sound better: but I'm willing to admit that that could be paranoia on my part)."
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