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The SONY DVP NS999 is not specifically listed as one of the players that can be modded by Vacuum State. Got any experience with this? Allen?Would you rather suggest a Denon 3910 which is listed in the VSE mod brochure?
The reason I am asking is that I have access to both of these players at a very reasonable price, and I just got an idea ;-)
Follow Ups:
Have not been inside the Denon players so I cannot comment on them.The link leads to my opinions of the pros/cons of the NS999.
The picture shows some of the pluses of the Sony '999s DVD/CD/SACD player. One can see the disk drive front left and digital board front right. Behind these is the six channels of analog amps/filters on the tan colored PCB. At the left end of this board one can see the audio grade Muse supply caps and regulators on their copper heatsinks. These regs are not the typical 780x types but rather the real deal pass transistors + error amp. Just out of the picture is a very nice 'R' core power transformer dedicated to feeding the linear power supply for the analog and DAC stages.
happy listening
Norman Tracy
that Dan Wright (Modwright) has a mod available for the NS-999ES, reviewed recently at Positive Feedback Online.--Jim
One should be suspicious of any mods that are said to "closes the gap between the best CDs and SACDs..." Is this more a case where CD improved while SACD sound performance takes a few steps backwards? Perhaps while the mod attempts to "fatten" up the sound of CD to make it more palatable, but in the process adding euphonic colouration that impeded natural harmonics of DSD sources from blosoming fully? I would look for a mod that extends the performance gap of SACD over the CD.I am also surprised the author of this article didn't request for the addition of balanced outputs to be added since his Pass X1 clearly sounds best with balanced sources. He also missed out the fact that once DRC is changed to WIDERANGE, audio performance on all media improved greater still.
to neither praise nor damn something I haven't heard (now _there's_ something to be suspicious of), I can't comment or speculate on the specific effects of the mod. My point was simply to indicate that a 999 mod exists and someone had posted a review of same...just in case the original poster wanted to follow that up with the modder or the reviewer.I'd note, however, (and it should be no revelation to anyone who's kept up with mod posts on this board) that the "closes the gap" response isn't an uncommon initial reaction to a mod that improves both CD and SACD performance...especially when one hasn't heard CD's "ever sound so good". Thus it's not necessarily an artifact of euphonic fattening up or steps taken backward, but rather the perception of a more or less dramatic--and substantive--improvement in the quality of CD playback. At least that's been my experience with the mods I've heard.
" to neither praise nor damn something I haven't heard "I think that we all would do better to keep that thought in mind more often...
The debate: (what does it take for SOTA redbook to equal SACD performance and at what level is SACD playback surpassed, - if at all by SOTA redbook), - is very interesting to me.
Necessarily, - there's going to be a big subjective, "as I hear it" qualification.
I really, really, like and have heard the Audio Aero Capitole II, with tweaks, at length, - and have "felt" that that system would better at least some SACD players. I get the feeling that no $1K or $2-$3K Universal player is going to play any format as good as the AA's redbook. But I haven't performed a shoot out either. (I also have heard DRAMATIC differences between certain player's SACD and redbook sections, - in which I sometimes suspect that the redbook section is purposely under-engineered in order to make the SACD section sound better: but I'm willing to admit that that could be paranoia on my part). I also need to remember that the CD is recorded in SACD, and those are not all created equal.
Wouldn't it be fun to compare some SOTA redbook with a crop of $3K - $4K SACD players, a maybe a $10K SOTA SACD too?
I sometimes suspect that the redbook section is purposely under-engineered in order to make the SACD section sound better
It's the level of performance drop that is of concern to me.I don't think that it's unreasonable to assume/hope that the redbook performance of a $3K to $4K SACD player should equal the redbook performance of a pretty good $2k player, - none that I've heard do...
... at that time i couldn't care less about SACD (if anything, i would probably have preferred to support DVD-A as I already owned two DVD-A discs and have yet to own a single SACD due to my perception that it was a proprietary format unlikely to survive long). i know a few people who even today primarily use their xa777es as a cd player and seldom play sacds on it - they seem to think the price was worth it compared to cd-only players.looking at the design of this player, i don't think it has any design or performance compromises for cd playing - in other words, it seems to be as well designed as a pure cd player as it possibly could be at it's price point - the signal path for cd is separate from dsd all the way to the DAC, even to the inclusion of a very good digital filter that supports 0dBFS+ that is used only for cd playback.
There are much more expensive cd only players out there that do not handle 0dBFS+ (for example, apparently the burr brown digital filters, which are used in high end players like wadia and cary, do NOT support 0dBFS+). i liked the fact that sony cared enough about the issue to put in special effort to resolve it for a player primarily marketed as a m-ch sacd player.
Most audiophiles who frequent here are not ready to accept the sound of CD as what it is. They have a different definition of what "better" means.
... a friend of mine said to me the usual story "SACD is crap. doesn't sound as good as CDs."so i politely asked "in what way?" And I got the usual "velvet curtain" answer: "too soft, high frequencies are muffled and sound wrong, must be DSD ultrasonic noise blah blah blah"
i said "ok, show me." and he played some jazz material featuring lots of cymbals on a hybrid disc on his system.
to be sure, compared to the CD, the SACD did sound less harmonically rich, and less thrilling. however, i noticed that the "richness" of the cymbals on CD sounded artificial, almost like "ringing" artefacts from PCM playback, and in fact the sound on SACD was more detailed despite sounding less impressive.
my friend wouldn't buy this explanation until i dragged him to a musical instruments store, struck a real cymbal and said "there! that's the sound of a real, unamplified, cymbal. and it doesn't contain any of the artefacts that you hear (and like) on the cd that are missing on the sacd."
but guess what, he still prefers the rich sound on cd. it's what he's become used to, and that is his "reality."
even later still, i discovered he had bass management engaged the whole time. it was a denon player, and i think on this model DSD is converted to PCM when bass management is turned on.
but all SACD reproduction and recordings are NOT created equal...Some SACD recordings or SACD remasters from the orginal analog tapes can be bad.
Also, - there's CAN BE a huge difference between SACD decks.
IMO, - your average $1K price point SACD, - playing SACDs, - can't get close to a SOTA redbook only CDP like the Audio Aero. And, - the AA bests even some $6K players, - like the MF Trivista running SACD, - IMO.
My issue, - is the redbook section. I have to listen more to the Sony 777, - as I have heard the redbook section and felt at the time that it didn't stack up to my Arcam, the Ayre, the NAIM or some of the other well regarded $2K to $3K players. I have compared the MF Trivista redbook section to my Arcam directly, as well as the Krell and Marantz, - and the Arcam blew those away, - quite decidedly in my mind...
absolutely agree, it all depends on the recording. i have some cds that sound decidedly better than the sacd equivalent.did you listen to the sony 777es or xa777es? two completely different players, with two completely different designs for cd playback ... the 777es converts PCM to DSD, the xa777es uses a completely different architecture.
my xa777es sounds better than all the arcams i have listened to. i can't find any cd player better than it that's lower in price. the denon dvd-a1 sounds slightly better, but it's around the same price. the linn unidisk sounds much better, but at twice the price.
i didn't really like the MF trivista all that much either. haven't heard the krell - that should be interesting.
I'll have to remember that.....Maybe that's the way I should go. I was thinking about getting a player that also did DVD video as I don't have one. I don't care about DVD video quality because I rarely watch movies or TV, and have an old crappy Sony CRT. But, - I thought that it would be a bonus and save space on the rack by not having two units. But, - maybe I should get a Toshiba 3960 just to save the space and get a better audio player...
Thanks again,
Cheers,
The original poster Soridman was refering to players, not individual discs when he wrote:" (I also have heard DRAMATIC differences between certain player's SACD and redbook sections, - in which I sometimes suspect that the redbook section is purposely under-engineered in order to make the SACD section sound better: but I'm willing to admit that that could be paranoia on my part)."
> The SONY DVP NS999 is not specifically listed as one of the players that can be modded by Vacuum State. Got any experience with this? Allen? <No, and I'm not really interested either. Some other modders like it, but basically it's a pretty cheap machine. A good upgrade isn't cheap, and I much prefer to start from a better position.
> Would you rather suggest a Denon 3910 which is listed in the VSE mod brochure? <
Yes - it's inherently better designed and better made - and we should have an upgrade for it by spring 2004.
> The reason I am asking is that I have access to both of these players at a very reasonable price, and I just got an idea <
As above...
For a 'cheap' machine, the failure rate for the Sony 999ES is extremely low. When was the last post about a transport issue with the 999ES? The 999ES is excellent for modding due to its roomy chassis, simple layout and, in stock form, already excellent sound.Denons in general have a long history of disc tracking problems, firmware issues and less than excellent sonics. Sure, they are built nice, but the chassis thickness has little to do with sonics if properly isolated.
Dad,
Do you have a successful mod for this machine that comes close to what those already modding the Denon 3910 can achieve - like my well respected rivals: Alex (API) & John Tucker?If you have I'd be interested in hearing about it, because to me "a roomy chassis, simple layout" is useful but doesn't count for too much when I'm looked to do an upgrade - unless there's just ZERO available space, as in the packed SONY XA-777ES.
> and, in stock form, already excellent sound <
Perhaps it has - but that doesn't automatically mean it can be taken much further. A successful upgrade takes advantage of *potential greatness* in a machine - if it exists - and in a lot of cost cut production machines there just isn't the basic quality there to exploit in a viable manner.
Don't feel I'm against SONY - exploitable potential greatness is what the SCD-1/777ES and the 9000ES and the other original SONY stereo machines have in spades, which is why I still recommend them as my first choice to anyone who wants an over engineered, and wonderfully upgradable machine.
Allen
What is not so great about the 999ES? What are the design factors, parts employment you deemed this player to be of low basic quality? Is it the power supply section, transport, DAC, decoder chip or analog section?What does the SCD-1/777ES and DVP-S9000ES has that makes them great candidates for upgrade?
I have the option to buy either the NS999ES or the S9000ES dirt cheap.
The explanation as to why Allen likes the potential of the SCD-1/777ES and DVP-S9000ES (and the carousel SCD-C333ES in the USA) is easily obtained from the Vacuum State website and he has posted his reasons on a number of occasions on this forum. As a long time member, I'm sure you have seen this data before.
Regards,
Geoff
Here's my understanding of why Allen thinks the 9000ES is a better mod platform than the 999ES:The earlier generation Sony SACD machines use a non-conventional, DSD only "current pulse" DAC. CD playback is provided by converting PCM to DSD in a digital filter. Allen's mod to these machines taps the output of the digital filter (VC24 chip) and passes it through a circuit of his design that does low pass filtering and buffering for output. It bypasses the DAC and all the output circuitry, including a ton of op-amps.
The later generation Sony machines use conventional multi-format Burr Brown DACs just like Denon, Pioneer, et. al. So his current mod will not work in these machines. The BB DACs handle PCM and DSD inputs, so there is no conversion from PCM to DSD prior to the DAC. That means the DACs can't be bypassed without losing PCM playback capability, so all existing mods to these machines preserve the BB DACs and therefore don't offer as pure a signal path.
...not only can one bypass almost all of the extranious stuff in an original SONY VC24 based player - they also have very direct clock signal paths - using a clock of the correct frequency and feeding it directly to where it's needed. This makes adding a superior clock easy to do, and very effective.The 9000ES even has two different clocks - one for SACD & RBCD, and a completely different one for DVD playback.
However most of the more recent SACD/RBCD capable DVD players have just one clock, and massage this clock signal with all sorts of phase locked loops etc to generate the several different frequencies needed - a great move to keep costs down, but in the process adding all sorts of jitter and other clock related errors. So adding even the best after market clock does little good as it's purity of signal will be 'massaged' as well...
So I say to Jerome, buy the dirt cheap 9000ES, or let me know who's selling it and I'll buy it myself!
Allen
nt
My first reply was to Sordidman, and then I replied to you.
nt
Eric"Julian Dicks is everywhere.
It's like they've got eleven Dicks on the
field."
I don't think we ever seen specific reasons why the S9000ES is preferred to the NS999ES as a stock player and with greater potential for sonic improvement after modifications.If it is due to transport, I am sure most people would also like to know why does he consider the one in the S9000ES to be better, since it seems to have more TOC read problem than the NS999ES. If it is DAC chip and implementation in question, I think people would like to know which chip is used in each model. I don't think that information is available here. If there's any manufacturer data that Allen can cite to let us know if the DAC implementation on each player are optimizing its performance as well as the format, then it would be most helpful.
We all are confident that Allen's modification to the analog stages is guaranteed to elicit the best out of DSD format, but what we also like to know specifically why he thinks the NS999ES construction and design is more of a hindrance to him, while the S9000ES has greater potential for improvement.
If you can source all this data within this board, please let us know, it would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance.
...headed "Dave has it correct" explain it enough?The bitstream VC24 chip is one main reason, the other is the vastly superior clock signal path.
Both allow the upgrader to really do some good work - machines with (IMO) compromised circuitry may sound quite good stock - but just don't offer the reasonably easy and cost effective possibilities to make great sonic changes.
Is that I never have problems reading discs now that I have an NS999ES. I don't know whether the transport is better, but it certainly seems to work well on TOC (fast too). It is such a welcome change from my first gen player. While this player is lighter in weight than the 9000ES and the other first gen sacd-only players, I would buy it over those machines for the reliability (sounds damn good too, with the Modwright platinum mods).
I'm in the EXACT same boat as you on this and want to do exactly what you're doing...Cheers,
Than you :-)
I suppose that you mean Spring 2005 (and not 2004).
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