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Something is very wrong in audioland: yesterday,

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tinear

(A)

we attended a party of 20-25 folks collectively to watch the Derby. The host had a nice collection of Oasis posters on his garage walls and so I expected to see at least a decent audio system upstairs. No. He had one of those newish Bose supersystems that contain audio/dvd in one package.
I politely started several conversations about audio with pretty much all the guys there... blank stares. NO one cared.
In one generation, we've gone from pretty damned fine audio (what's now reverentially referred to as "vintage") to MP3 and vastly inferior home theater "surround" systems.
Audio and boxing: coming soon to a cemetery near you.
I don't know what could bring about a Renaissance. Perhaps product placement? It's amazing how little of it there is in Hollywood. Gazillion dollar homes and penthouses, Ferraris, flowing Bollinger... but never awesome audio on display.
Time for this ultra competitive industry to cooperate a bit to reverse this race to the bottom.

Follow Ups:

Why the crying? Hi-end audio did this to itself - chuck55 09:39:12 05/11/07 (0)
No one to blame but the hi-end industry itself.
Hi-end audio has pretty much disassociated itself with any form of credibility.
Everything sounds great. Ask any Stereo mag.
Don't forget to fill your room with magic pebbles too. Don't EVEN THINK of calling those people cheats or liars. No, because we don't want to hurt their feelings or question their golden ears. Don't forget to pony up the $6k large for some speaker wire too. There's a lot of common sense going on there, sure. You can disagree, but most of the world's population is going to agree with me.
The majority of hi-end is a lie and a bunch or B.S. People who haven't been sucked into the "audio cult" have a much clearer perspective than those in the hi end forest.
I would venture there is a large contingent out there who considers anyone who spends $5,000 on a pre-amp an idiot. Since most folks don't want to be considered an idiot by their friends they aren't getting int hi-end audio.
In contrast, have you ever seen someone in a Diablo and thought "what an idiot for spending $80,000 (whatever) on a car?". Nope, most people are impressed as heck. That won't ever happen with audio.
Don't get me wrong, I love hi-end audio. Who really wants to wade through the lies, hype, dealers, etc? To most people getting great sound isn't worth the trouble. Buying Bose is easy. No hassle. No back -and-forth-banter. Hi-end audio still hasn't figured out, and probably never will, how to make hi-end EASY. Its waaayyy too difficult so people won't bother.
Re: Something is very wrong in audioland: yesterday, - Rub�n Gonz�lez 17:55:57 05/08/07 (0)
we are the weirdos, not them. i am a kentucky resident myself, and i'm perplexed as to why you heckled the guy at a derby party about something so mundane. i am also 14 and disagree with any notions, however subtle, that the newcomers to this hobby are bad for its health in the long run.
The world keeps changing, and our priorities change with it. - Big Dave 10:23:19 05/08/07 (0)
Here is (most of) a message I posted about ten days ago. I'm re-posting it in this thread because it is relevant.
The basic problem that higher-end audio manufacturers face is declining interest in audio per se. With so many new-tech alternatives to choose from, most consumers have "moved on" to other pursuits, mostly in the video realm.... and it's hard to fault them. We humans are more sight-oriented than sound-oriented, so it's easy to see why someone would rather buy a hi-def TV than a two-channel amplifer or a pair of speakers for the same money. And of course, we have the home computer market competing for the same discretionary spending.
I suspect that high-end home audio systems will become increasingly rare, owned only by rich eccentrics. Even $4,000 audio-only systems will become an oddity. Until and unless there is a resurgence of interest in high-quality sound the market will continue to shrink. 98% of the population will spend their money on big-screen TVs and listen to music on iPods. The only way that "high end" manufacturers can change this is to bring prices down to a much more affordable level.
Recently I had dinner with a fairly wealthy gentleman and his wife who live nearby, in a very tastefully furnished home they bought last year as a retirement home. They are educated, highly intelligent people. Everything in their home was of high quality, most of it obviously new. In their living room they had a 54" Pioneer HDTV, and sitting next to it a Bose Acoustic Wave system. I know they could have spent more on a sound system, but they didn't care to. Probably 75% of the money they spent on a/v gear went to the video side, and I'm sure they think their Bose system is about as good as it gets. After all, they've been bombarded with ads telling them so for years!
So, in a certain sense, Bose is the future of audio. They have an excellent reputation with the non-audiophile masses, and their products aren't all that bad - just overpriced by about 200%. For companies with better products to succeed, they must become more Bose-like. Sad but true.

"Music is the medicine of a troubled mind." -- Walter Haddon, 1567
I'd wager if you'd ask any one of those folks there if - Green Lantern 14:02:25 05/07/07 (0)
they 'didn't get it' and suggest they'd spend $1000-20,000 on speaker cables, untold more on interconnects, $500 on a phono cartridge, $5,000 on a cd transport , etc., .. I'd wonder who'd be the one out of place!
There's a reason this sit is called an Asylum!

"Live life as if you'll die tomorrow...
Learn life as if you'll live forever..." -Gandhi
bose maybe your last hope. - Vic D 07:41:25 05/07/07 (0)
As much as you (or we) have our convictions regarding bose, and since it represents "the best sound" to the masses it just happens to be the high ends foot in the door. If you care, and I don't, there will be a few who will graduate from the universe of mediocrity that is bose into something better.
If your looking for an audio related cause look into the misuse of earbuds and the damage they're causing. Simply passing on some common information to an unsuspecting user may save their hearing down the road.
People buy what's trendy - Feanor 06:15:01 05/07/07 (1)
The 70's was stereo's time. People where persuaded to buy stereo systems by the marketing and the need to keep up with the Joneses. Did they really care about quality sound? Not necessarily.
Today's marketing trend is big screen, HD TV. This is what people care about because the Best Buy ads and what their buddies are buying. Sound a very secondary consideration; if they have an extra grand or so, they put it into a bigger screen, not better sound.
Sure, they want say they have 5.1, 6.1, 7.1 sound, but if they can get that from "Home theatre in a box", that's good enough.

Bill Bailey
___________________________________________
See my stereo config
- True. Today it's big, flat screens and tiny speakers, and,... - Markw* 08:24:14 05/07/07 (0)
  ...what's the first name most people think of when you say "tiny speakers?
  Gotta love media inundation.
Well, not many people have have time to sit down and listen to anything seriously these days - JDK 03:58:07 05/07/07 (1)
It's all about multi-tasking. MP3 players are good at that. You don't reeeally even care about what you're listening to, not when you are doing something else at the same time.
So many gadgets and so little time - that is at least part of the problem.

Cheers,
John K

"Natura abhorret a vacua"
- Re: Well, not many people have have time to sit down and listen to anything seriously these days - andyr 05:26:52 05/07/07 (0)
  Hey ma man,
  When ya gonna get down here and listen to my CF-composite LP12 subchassis upgrade?? :-))
  You'll be envious, I promise ya!! ;-))
  Regards,
  Andy
What's wrong with Boxing? DLH pressed the action... - howard 20:06:14 05/06/07 (1)
Mayweather rarely did...shoulda been a draw.
- DLH shoulda won - he was the champ and Mayweather didn't do enough to take the title from him. [nt] - chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com 13:26:37 05/07/07 (0)
  nt
  Best Regards,
  Chris redmond.
Watched Friday night's Ghost Whisperer CBS Starring Jennifer Love Hewitt-Vinyl plays big - Joe M 19:22:59 05/06/07 (0)
one character explains how Analog Vinyl sounds better than Digital as they set up a stereo system in a kids bedroom. Anyone else catch this. What Brands were shown?
Re: Something is very wrong in audioland: yesterday, - Todd Krieger 17:19:22 05/06/07 (0)
If I attended a Derby party and saw a Bose system there, I would have totally forgotten about its presence two minutes later.....
Historical Perspective - Paul Joppa 17:14:41 05/06/07 (2)
Realy, I'm not the guy to say this - but intil that person comes along, here's what I understand ...
In the teens and early twenties, only a few serious geeks had radios.
In the twenties and thirties, radio was the mass media. Rich people spent tons of money on some great radios. Everybody knew about high-end radio, even if they could not afford it.
Ducing and after WWII the high end of audio shrank to a tiny minority of geeks who built their own gear, mostly using speakers derived from those used in theaters. The mass market either went to the movies, or bought increasingly cheap table radios. If they had money, they bought TVs with it.
In the psychedelic sixties, huge numbers of people got really serious about their rock and roll, and the newly invented "stereo" sound, and the industry increased enormously. High end audio was back inthe mass market.
After the hippies grew up and had kids and mortgages (and stopped smoking so many funny cigarettes) the industry began to shrink. Once again, it's fairly geeky to have a system dedicated just to music. The mass market wants cheap tunes (iPods today) and home theater.
This too shall pass (IMHO) - the pendulum has swung many cycles, thgere's no reason it should not continue to do so. :^)
- Ever look at NY Times Magazines from the 70s? - bondmanp 12:46:18 05/08/07 (0)
  They are full of ads for hifi gear and speakers. It was still fresh, exciting and a status symbol for people who wanted to show that they had good taste. Now look at the most recent NY Times mag: Bose-Bose-Cambridge Audio-Bose-Bose-Bose..... The inability of Americans to resist or look beyond pop culture and marketing is appalling.
- Re: Historical Perspective - Postal Grunt 18:44:28 05/06/07 (0)
  Don't for get the impact of hundreds of thousands of GI's that had access to the PX and BX stores during the Viet Nam war era. Those 5 way Coral speakers were certainly something to behold after listening to the fold out and portable stereos of the late 60s and early 70s.
  Kenwood, Pioneer and Sansui provided the foundation for many systems. The first stereo cassette deck that I used in 1972 was bought by an Air Force sergeant on his way back stateside.
  I wouldn't be surprised if a few of those old receivers were still chirping out tunes in someone's garage tonight.
did anyone complain? - Green Lantern 17:00:17 05/06/07 (0)
there are probably just as many bulletin boards setup for folks who are passionate about ink pens than there are about audio.
I mean a pen's a pen right?
Who among us use writing utensils that cost the equivalent of a days or week's pay?
It's all about personal choices isn't it?

"Live life as if you'll die tomorrow...
Learn life as if you'll live forever..." -Gandhi
When demonstrating status people buy brands, and BOSE is a status brand. [nt] - chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com 15:12:10 05/06/07 (4)
nt
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
- BOSE is a status brand??? to whom? K-Mart shoppers??? nt - Elizabeth 09:51:03 05/07/07 (3)
  .
  - I'm not sure - is your K-Mart the equivalent of Harrods? [nt] - chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com 10:19:14 05/08/07 (0)
    nt
    Best Regards,
    Chris redmond.
  - To the great unwashed - JMCIII 15:35:35 05/07/07 (0)
    Seriously, Joe and Mrs. 6-Pack - who make up the vast majority of the population - consider Bose to be one of the creame-del-a-creame of ausio. About the only other brand that offers more cache is Macintosh (but most consider them insanely overprices and devoted to an obsolete technology so don;t lust after them as they once might have).
    As for the affluent consumer (of the non-audiophile variety), listening to music is well down on the list of priorities when it comes to discrectionary income. The high-end's low profile doesn't help, fopr sure, but even if it WAS better known it still wouldn't be a big seller. As was pointed out below, priorities have changed of late. Sad but true.
    
    John Crossett
    ____________________________
    It sounds like English, but I can't understand a word you're saying.
  - Tut tut, Elizabeth... - feet's too big 14:24:41 05/07/07 (0)
    You have evidently not taken the rather "odd" sense of humour of us Brits into account...
    
    Bill.
    "Audiophiles DO get the audio systems they deserve!...."...
Re: Something is very wrong in audioland: yesterday, - keldasdad 15:04:10 05/06/07 (0)
Unfortunately you seem to be nostalgic for something that never existed. The vast majority of people never have had an interest in high end audio, so there is really nothing to mourn in that sense.
Bet there was a GREAT BIG SCREEN to watch the derby on though. Priorities, man...N/T - musetap 11:23:50 05/06/07 (5)
N/T
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
- "Recorded music is a shitty experience. But video is in a GOLDEN AGE!" -- The Lefsetz Letter - clarkjohnsen 13:16:41 05/06/07 (4)
  Siometimes Bob can be merely cranky, but today he's cranky and *on message*.
  [Excerpt]
  So, what do you get, LCD or plasma?
  Plasma is sharper, with better blacks. But LCD is better in bright light. Then again, there's that new Panasonic plasma with the matte finish, that shows no glare.
  How confusing!
  Have you watched anything in HD? Makes you feel like you're at the movies. With that rectangular aspect ratio. You almost expect the ratings insert to come up before every show. It's a religious experience, you've got to have it.
  Actually, Felice already has it, in her bedroom, a 36" LG.
  Isn't it fascinating how the brands have changed? In the initial color era, the goal was to have a Zenith. We had an Admiral, years before anybody else had color. You see my dad won it in a raffle at the JCC! It was a hundred dollar ticket. He ponied up fifty, and two others put down twenty five bucks. When they won, my father paid each of the others seventy five dollars and took the set. Yup, that was a good deal back in the sixties, when color televisions verged on a grand.
  People would come to our house and marvel at the set. Oldsters would say the picture was not that good, not that sharp. But every October my buddies would race to my house from school to watch the final innings of the World Series, when they still played baseball during the day, when young kids still cared about the game, when it wasn't the addiction of aging baby boomers and truly old men.
  Then, three or four years later, in '65 or '66, color came down in price to the point where many of my friends no longer came by for the game. And then the Admiral burned out and we got a Zenith with a remote control. And that television sufficed until my mother got a lousy Sharp from a friend in the eighties, and refused to replace it, believing that TV was a substandard medium.
  Now television is the primary medium. "Spider-Man 3" might have garnered $59 million its first day, but the reviews have been far from stellar, the word "mediocre" comes to mind. It's positively American. Overhype, mass mentality, all calories and no protein. All FILLER! Whereas when one sits down and watches "The Sopranos" in HD, one has a religious experience. Right inside the frame is a whole world, not a concoction of lowest common denominator Hollywood pricks with contempt for their audience, but people who want to test the limits and do something great! Not that they always succeed, but you applaud their efforts, you root for them, because we want the fruits of their labor, we want greatness.
  That's what the purveyors have wrong, that we want mediocrity. The reason "American Idol" scores is it's got more drama than the tripe on the big screen. We can divine the essence, we're just not exposed to it often enough.
  And there's an arms race on television. Between not only Showtime and HBO, but FX and Bravo too. Everybody's looking for something that hooks the public. And that's why you've got to have the box. To participate. Watching TV on cell phones? That's a joke. It's not about the information so much as the EXPERIENCE! Draw the curtains, turn up the sound, blend with the screen. Get taken away for an hour or two. That's what you're working for, to be able to afford this experience!
  And the price keeps coming down.
  I love gear. All the specs, all the philosophies. It's not about cutting corners in video, but giving you more cluck for your buck. And the prices have gotten so cheap that the hoi polloi have ventured in. They may be buying Vizios from Costco, but they don't want to be left out.
  And if you wander into Magnolia, or Ken Crane's, or some other video emporium, you won't want to be left out EITHER!
  It's the picture. Sometimes the same one replicated over complete walls, one set after another. And there's always something better than you can afford, that you can aspire to, that you can dream about. Sure, you might be looking at a 46" set, but imagine having a 70! Wouldn't that be great!
  And you've got to get a sound system to go with your big screen. Whether it be cheapie theatre-in-a-box for five hundred bucks, or real B&W sound. Amplified by a receiver with enough acronyms to baffle anybody but a fifteen year old boy. Do you need HDMI to go with your 1080p? There's a learning curve, and every detail counts, because you want to get it right.
  It's a religious experience. Divining all the data.
  Felice likes the look of LCD, and the room she wants to put the set in has glass doors. But how big? A 40" set NOT in HD format shows a picture only as big as her old Sony, presently in the living room. So, you've got to go bigger. At least 46". 50"?
  And what brand? Sony may be dying in music and portable music players, but it's on a tear in TV. It's like the old days, perceived to be the best, and an extra chunk of change more. But if you're spending this much, should you pop for the XBR?
  And what about Samsung? Their set looked better than the XBR! Could that be store adjustment? Brighter sets looking more appealing? Then again, they make the screens in the same factory.
  Samsung... Can you imagine buying a Samsung ANYTHING twenty years ago? KOREAN? Give me a break! That's one thing the oldsters don't get anymore, there's no loyalty to the old names. Not even to Jay-Z. There's no legacy, what's best TODAY!
  And the Samsung looks pretty damn good.
  So do you pop for the B&W ceiling speakers? They're blowing out some Klipsch set. And Bose... Funny how in the high end shops they pooh-pooh the direct-reflecting household name.
  And I see all the shit they have in "Sound & Vision". Definitive!
  As for receivers... Igor wouldn't go with anything less than the $1,600 Yamaha. You want your Blu-Ray player to render at 1080, right?
  How did the music business fuck up so badly? This used to be OUR domain!
  Pristine sound... You wanted to get closer to the music. Oh, it was a hit out of the speaker in your dashboard, but at home you wanted to be bathed in the notes, you couldn't really appreciate the music until you heard it on a component system.
  But then the cassette became the standard. Oh, you could buy a Nakamichi deck and record a tape every bit as good as vinyl, but the prerecorded stuff was duped onto crap, at high speed. These tapes were not made for component stereos.
  And then if the CD was perfection, what did it matter what you played it on? In the nineties, a stereo became an all-in-one, for a couple of hundred bucks.
  And then we got the iPod.
  The iPod allows you to take your music everywhere. But you don't expect a replication of your home in a hotel (unless it's frighteningly expensive!) The iPod is about convenience. What about EXCELLENCE!
  Well, the music companies gave up on excellence. So the gear makers moved on to TV. Oh, this video revolution has been percolating for nearly two decades. But it's finally taken hold. NOW IS THE TIME!
  When is the time for sound?
  Well, in order for it to work, the sound has to be good. Have you listened to hit CDs? Thank god we play them on iPods, they assault one's ears.
  All I know is today in Ken Crane's I got that rush from the seventies, when I used to haunt Pacific Stereo, and University Stereo, and Federated. Back when that was my number one aspiration, good sound. I used to subscribe to three magazines, "Stereo Review", "Hi-Fidelity" and "Audio". I used to love to stay home and play records. That was an activity unto itself!
  Now I get a better hit, one that I feel in my gut, watching the aforementioned "Sopranos". The bigger the screen, the better. With not only surround, but a center speaker and subwoofer.
  Recorded music is a shitty experience. But video is in a GOLDEN AGE!
  
  --
  Visit the archive: http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/
  --
  If you would like to subscribe to the LefsetzLetter,
  - http://www.lefsetz.com/lists/?p=subscribe&id=1 (Open in New Window)
  - Re: "Recorded music is a shitty experience. But video is in a GOLDEN AGE!" -- The Lefsetz Letter - Todd Krieger 16:44:42 05/06/07 (3)
    In contrast to the aural perception of digitized media, I have never sensed awful side-effects in the visual perception......
    - Pixillation can get me down, and garish plasma. CRT rules! nt - clarkjohnsen 08:01:05 05/07/07 (2)
      x
      - BUT........... - Todd Krieger 22:08:33 05/08/07 (1)
        
        In Reply to: Pixillation can get me down, and garish plasma. CRT rules! nt posted by clarkjohnsen on May 7, 2007 at 08:01:05:
        
        Flat screen monitors are not RFI monsters like CRTs were. So while it may be more-pleasant visually (although I think flat screens don't generate as much UV radiation), it doesn't help your aural sonics.
        This is one technological change that I personally have zero complaints with.
        
        Hmm... Can't I just turn the TV off for music? nt - clarkjohnsen 08:02:01 05/09/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: BUT........... posted by Todd Krieger on May 8, 2007 at 22:08:33:
        
        x
Most Americans buy what the mass media tell them to. nt - Jackaro 11:17:26 05/06/07 (0)
I keep saying this but the reason for this is that lots expensive audio systems sound bad. Why would anyone care? - Don T 10:58:03 05/06/07 (4)
How desireable can the high end be if a buyer walks into a hifi shop with his favorite CD only to have it sound like poop. So what if the dealer can put on some lame but squeeking clean sounding music like Dire Straights or Eagles.
We got these dolts in this hobby, some call themselves music lovers and others call themselves audiophiles who feel it's somekind of right of passage to have an audio system that sounds bad unless they're listening to a recording they consider good. LOL! Yea the recording is good if when played the system doesn't sound bad! What a bad joke - nobody falls for that crap except the dummy sitting around listening to uninteresting but "special" recordings that sound good and suffering through every else.
Do you think anyone with little/no high fi experience would be interested in hi fi once they've heard their favorite disks sound worse than they sound on an ipod or portable? No freeking way.
Interest in high end audio will continue to dwindle and IMO it's mainly because more audiophiles know how to justify bad sounding systems* than there are audiophiles who understand how to make great sounding systems.
*because magazine told them how and convinced them it was good stuff and most everyone else has to make the sale.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
- You make some good points, but you're also a little delusional - J.Mac 13:38:12 05/06/07 (3)
  Most people have NEVER in their lives stepped into a high end audio shop. So that's certainly not the excuse you can use for them.
  High end audio is just plain dying out for lack of interest. That's difficult (or impossible) for most audiophiles to come to grips with. I've seen non-audiophiles listen to very very good systems in audiophiles' homes with such complete and utter disinterest that the host was clearly beside himself. Tough to take.
  - I don't know about that! - Don T 14:27:13 05/06/07 (2)
    If we consider high end Pioneer recievers and the kind of midif stuff similar to what we could buy at the FedMart, Radio Shack and other similar outlets (these days Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.) then maybe there's a point to be made.
    But I see a much better component selection for guys who are interested in high end audio than I did 20 years ago. Maybe the midfi outlets are hurting and maybe some b&m audio shops are having a hard time competing with the internet.
    This is a golden age for audiophiles - the best of times to get truly awesome gear at all price points. And with the massive interest in computer music systems and portables the high end industry should excited about up this future music fed generation that's up and coming.
    Too bad my generation of audiophiles had to be so negatively influences by that Absolute Sound dump of a few years back. If high end audio vanishes (and it won't) it will be because of the influence of some people who are considered founding fathers of the audio industry. What dreck!
    I hope I am not delusional and try to be optimistic.
    
    Give me rhythm or give me death!
    - golden age for audiophiles - J.Mac 18:20:00 05/06/07 (1)
      In many ways I agree.
      But in terms of numbers, the interest in audio reproduction as a passion/hobby is dying. Fast.
      - ... And that is GOOD thing for you and me. - carcass93 10:49:50 05/11/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: golden age for audiophiles posted by J.Mac on May 6, 2007 at 18:20:00:
        
        Why in the world do YOU personally need somebody else to be interested/involved?
        To increase demand for hi-end gear? To make world better place to live?
        I say - fuck them all, and enjoy your stereo.
progressively fewer and fewer people have ever heard a good system - Jon L5 10:46:14 05/06/07 (6)
The best stuff in the big box stores is getting worse and worse. The typical home theater in a box is incredibly bad. The difference between average audio and good/high-end audio is increasing.
The opposite is happening in video. The cost of plasma and lcd televisions that have excellent pictures is dropping quickly. Front projectors, the ideal for home theater, are ridiculously cheap. I bought a $1,000 projector a couple of months ago that is far superior to what was available for $5,000 3 or 4 years ago. It's hard to find video that's anything less than very good at any price.
I believe that there will come a point when the current trend will naturally reverse itself and audio will regain focus. The typical audio system will once again become the bigger investment and video will return to second place. The reason for this is that audio is so much more difficult to get right. With digital processing video has progressed from low resolution tube and very poor rear projection sets to spectacularly good plasma and lcd sets and front projectors in only about the last 5 years. Full range audio systems that can play loudly with low distortion and actually sound good in a particular room will always require a sizable investment and careful setup. The digital front end has become cheap and good amplification may become cheap but good speakers will always be expensive. The other areas where I think there's some room to grow are in custom installation and room treatments that don't look wierd. If someone invented some room treatments that were reasonably priced, effective, and didn't stand out in a typical living room quality audio could become popular with normals again.
The problem is that high-end shops are still trying to sell thousands of dollars worth of wires to people like me who can't hear much difference and aren't sure the differences they hear are improvements. This despite the fact that they audition their equipment in terrible sounding rooms that easily overshadow any improvements made by tweaks.
I think high-end audio is just going through a much needed natural selection process where a lot of BS is going to go extinct and real quality and value will remain for the minority of people who care about it.
- Heck with the Good System..... - Todd Krieger 16:31:34 05/06/07 (1)
  Fewer and fewer people are being exposed to what I think is good music.....
  (And even if they are exposed to what I think is good music, the digitized playback of it would likely stifle the perception of it being good music.)
  If I had the perspective that it doesn't get any better than the Foo Fighters and Arctic Monkeys, and that MP3s sound just as good as CDs, I too would think Bose was the end-all in audio.....
  - I think you've hit the nail right on the head... - DevillEars 13:08:26 05/07/07 (0)
    ... by your comment "fewer people are being exposed to... ...good music".
    Although, I might re-phrase it to read:
    "More people are being exposed to bad music" :-)
    My two kids are more interested in today's "heavy metal", "grunge" and the like than in the music of the mid-to-late 20th century - classical, jazz and nostalgia rock hold little or no interest for them.
    They are, I believe, representative of their respective generations (they're 12 years apart in age) and give a pretty good indication of the listening priorities of their generations.
    So, if all one wants to listen to is heavily distorted noise, then why bother with high fidelity reproduction of that distortion? :-)
    Someone else also touched on a key factor - the availability of time for dedicated listening. The ability to "multi-task" that something like an iPOD brings (Gym & listen, Jog & listen, etc) does much to address this time issue.
    These are just two aspects of the differences in priorities and "drivers" that influence the allocation of disposable income in the youth of today - there are probably quite a few others...
    
    DevillEars
- Re: progressively fewer and fewer people have ever heard a good system - Wendell Narrod 11:14:34 05/06/07 (3)
  "I believe that there will come a point when the current trend will naturally reverse itself and audio will regain focus."
  I think this is wishful thinking. In my opinion, there is no chance of this ever happening. The only thing constant, for better or worse, is change. 2 channel and high-end audio will be a memory in another generation. That's only 20 years. Dealers who don't adapt won't be in business. Most of us, who've been doing this for 40 or more years will be taking dirt naps by then. There won't be anyone left to care.
  - Re: progressively fewer and fewer people have ever heard a good system - Jon L5 13:05:13 05/06/07 (1)
    Typical old fogey talk. I'm 30 and have been interested since college. We don't disagree on that much. 2 channel and tubes may die but they are just types of high end that appeal to people in a particular age bracket. They aren't synonymous with high end. Like I said, there will always be a minority of people interested in quality audio just like there are a minority of people interested in quality everything else. The problem is that many audiophiles mistake the end of particular trends with the end of the whole thing. The new high end will be different than the old high end but will exist in one form or another.
    - Re: progressively fewer and fewer people have ever heard a good system - Wendell Narrod 13:45:28 05/06/07 (0)
      Who you calling old?! You young whippersnapper! Dagnabbit!!
  - Re: progressively fewer and fewer people have ever heard a good system - Dawnrazor 11:43:56 05/06/07 (0)
    Sadly, I agree!!
    Many got started in this hobby building dyna kits or radios, etc.
    But now, most are entering audio listening to the ipod/ mp3. And we audiophiles still think it is about sound quality! Ipod clearly shows that convenience is way more important to most people.
    A dirt nap for us all!!!
is there a possibility - jim@signalpath 08:53:12 05/06/07 (0)
that the elitism associated with our hobby has something to do with this? ;> ) Just wondering, because most of my old buddies from college act like they'd rather get a root canal than go through the process of selecting a good high-end system.
Speaking as a manufacturer and a distributor, we're absolutely going to have to adjust to the download generation. I recently heard that Linn's offering real 24/96 downloads from their website that sound great. In a perfect world all the major labels would follow suit. You're not going to get the downloaders to buy SACDs and DVD-As...we know that. But you *might* get them to buy their favorite music at a premium...especially now that storage space is ridiculously cheap. Once that happens, the opportunity for selling them better audio gear is available.
Audioland? Sounds more like "Never-Never-Land"... - DevillEars 08:09:37 05/06/07 (0)
... and us ageing Peter Pans and Wendies have been bested by a Captain Hook that consists of newer generations with very different priorities.
The worst part is that there is no nice big crocodile with an alarm clock inside to come along and chase away this evil Captain...
Another disturbing aspect is that Tinker Bell (over whom I used to have some childhood fantasies) and the other kids of Never-Never-Land have all deserted the fold and now run around with iPOD's or lounge around at home watching music DVD's on Bose systems.
Using another analogy, purist 2-channel audio is the "battleship" that has been obsoleted by a combination of "nuclear submarines" (iPOD's) and "nuclear-powered aircraft-carriers" (HT/AV lifestyle systems).
Forgetting - for the moment - the implications on audio equipment manufacturers of this trend (moving away from 2-channel and getting bed with iPOD and HT), there is another area of concern, and that lies in the area of software.
Given the trend towards crappy CD's with recording levels so high that dynamic range is fast becoming a fond memory and the other side of the coin where music is downloaded to a computer rather than purchased on some shiny 5.25" form factor, just how much longer will us audio dinosaurs be able to purchase reasonably-priced software for our "vintage gear"?
Market forces drive companies! When those market forces tell manufacturers to change course, they'd better change course as indicated or face extinction. Also, let's face it - music publishers like Sony-BMG etc are not really in business to satisfy you and I - they're there to satisfy their shareholders - and if the market shifts, they'll follow the money.
So, we can - at best - look forward to a future wherein music on physical media is only produced by small specialist companies and the unit prices charged will reflect the lack of economies of scale from the lower production volumes. At worst, we'll all be scrapping over used CD's in thrift shops...
Does any of this sound familiar? Any vinyl addicts listening?

DevillEars
Product Placement... Excellent point!... One of the reasons why Hong Kong's high-end audio scene is doing so well. [nt] - Steve Cortez 07:41:41 05/06/07 (0)
.
Life is too short, Enjoy yourself. The younger generation want music 24/7 and does not care about realism. - Norm 07:31:51 05/06/07 (0)
It is digital that has allowed this, and I am afraid we cannot put the genie back in the box.
Re: Something is very wrong in audioland: yesterday, - Wendell Narrod 07:04:32 05/06/07 (0)
There was a story in the Louisville Courier-Journal yesterday on this topic. In my opinion, there is nothing that can be done to reverse this trend. We are going through a paradigm shift in music listening. We are the last of a dying breed. Denial is not going to change it.
Re: Something is very wrong in audioland: yesterday, - REL54 06:42:23 05/06/07 (7)
I know exactly what you are talking about. A guy at work was talking to me about "audio" and raving about his ultra super great fantastic music system. Turns out that it isn't even a surround home theater system but his PC sound card hooked to a processor of some kind.
I suggested that he come over some weekend and we'd sit around and listen to my stereo. He said something to the effect of "naw, them old tube stereos are no good. They just buzz and hum". When I suggested that he listen to a good tube amp that didn't do that he opined that his audio has to be better cause it has SIX speakers.
Somehow, in his mind, more speakers equals "better" sound. He excitedly repeated several times that his has SIX speakers. You gotta hear it he urged. I politelly declined. I could have made more progress talking to a brick wall. There is none so blind as he who will not see.
roN
- Re: Something is very wrong in audioland: yesterday, - Dawnrazor 11:31:19 05/06/07 (2)
  Don't dismiss a system because it is PC based!
  There are some sound cards that easily best "audiophile" gear.
  Case in point, my PC systems sounds way better than my old transport dac system. Even off the pc, the soundcard sound better than the external DAC which is about $300 more expensive than the sound card. ($900-1200)
  Also, the soundcard has 3 pairs of balanced outs and I can use the PC as a digital crossover and do room correction as well as upsampling.
  That said, I agree that your coworker's rig probably isn't audiophile.
  IMHO the industry has done a horrible job of educating, and just seems to dismiss anyone not buying into their mantra as stupid. Kind of like you are doing with your coworker :)
  - Re: Something is very wrong in audioland: yesterday, - REL54 19:02:48 05/06/07 (0)
    no, I do not think that he is stupid, just uninformed. You're too presumptous concluding that I think he is stupid. I know this guy. I've worked with him for years so I know he's not a DA. He just has never listened to any good stereo equipment. I didn't intend to imply that I thought he's stupid. After all, we're not talking about Bose stuff here ;-)
    Hooking multiple speakers to lo-fi doesn't make it sound hi-fi. All it does is add more outlets to the lo-fi output.
    yeah, I know that PC audio isn't the transistor radio sounding junk it used to be, BUT, you can add all the computer speakers you want to any PC and they won't deliver the bass slam of good speakers.
    and for the other post(er), no, I had/have no interest in driving to VA Beach to listen to his PC speakers (all six of them). Not trying to be a smarta** but the quality of my tube gear has surpassed anything I've heard demo-ed in the outlets retailing the PC stuff he has. I've already listen to those systems in several places. Admittedly they sounded better than I thought they would.
    Now, if he wanted to show me his new Manley amps..........
    cheers,
    roN
  - Re: Something is very wrong in audioland: yesterday, - jimmycj 14:09:54 05/06/07 (0)
    So many spots in tv and mags could have easy placement of stereos and ads,but nobody does it.How hard is to slap together a little stereo,even a $1000. system,really anything just to get exposure and for somebody to see it,hell you dont even see stereos in Rolling Stone,what am i missing here,last time i checked i thought Rolling Stone had something to do with music.And people get upset because Bose makes sales
- Re: Something is very wrong in audioland: yesterday, - jedinvest 08:03:35 05/06/07 (0)
  Ten years ago, a perfectly normal looking blond hair dude at a high-tech company, showed me his ultimate highfi setup. It was his car with an array of bazooka subs all over it. I'm sure the guy is almost deaf with tinnitis by now. Whatever floats their boat.
  The only guy I ever converted was someone with an extensive CD collection (this is getting rare now) who remembers the record trading and even the open-reel trading days. He didn't know the highend existed until he met me. As it goes, the equipment investment was modest compared to his software collection.
- Re: Something is very wrong in audioland: yesterday, - yotacowboy 07:49:31 05/06/07 (0)
  Y'all might think it's dying, but there's still some of us young folk that really, really enjoy some good tunes, and good sound.
  I started with a junk stereo, moved into a pricey HT setup, then sold it all off for some tube gear and (gasp!) two speakers...
  I try to get as many of my friends (and as many musicians as I can stand!) to bring over a handful of their favorite cd's, or in the musicians' cases, their own music. I provide the PBR, and usually the afternoons or evenings conclude with all of them asking me to help them pick out a cheap system!
  I KNOW none of my friends would ever think to try and buy gear from some dude that belittles their music... how many times have you ever heard some Dimu Borgir blasting at a high end shop??? The HORROR!!! Sorry, mate, but that's what some people listen to! who gives a rats ass whether its audiophallic!! and I'm more than happy to let any of my friends listen to ANY music on my humble rig, to try and get them bit by the bug.
- Re: Something is very wrong in audioland: yesterday, - mls-stl 06:50:32 05/06/07 (1)
  Sounds like neither of you wanted to give the other's stereo system a try.... ;-)
  - Re: Something is very wrong in audioland: yesterday, - AbeCollins 07:11:58 05/06/07 (0)
    That's what I was thinking. Maybe his SIX speakers sound incredible. ;-)

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