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New product comes in. We discuss and I agree to the price without any negotiation. Price agreed to is $750 (no discounts). I didn't discuss price because the price was so low in the first place. We then discuss returns. Dealer offers restock fee of 20% ($150). I ask the dealer to share the risk by lowering the restock fee to 10% 9$75). Dealer refuses. I say I do not understand. Dealer explains and then hangs up the phone! I do not have any prior history with this dealer.Meanwhile, I did not get to discuss the speakers for which he is a dealer...where I am looking to upgrade to the next model.
What I would like is if people could offer their answers and opinions on this situation. Is this a good dealer in this situation? Is the firm stance on 20% fair? Did the dealer make a sales mistake by hanging up the phone and not realizing additional sales or discussions could take place? Did my lack of history with him mean that he could not lower the restock fee or should we have took this first step together that could have yielded another, more expensive deal on speakers? Mistake on my part of not mentioning the speakers at the beginning of the conversation?
The answers may be obvious or they may not be and taht is why I am asking. I know how I am left after these events: disappointed.
Dealers welcome to respond also. This doesn't have to be a dealer bashing thread in spite of my thoughts about dealers at this moment. Another dealer waited a week after my check cleared to deliver a tonearm that he serviced, thereby, pissing me off. I just don't think cash a check and then not delivering is ethical.
Follow Ups:
I'm not a dealer, but it seems to me the very phrase "restocking fee" is a misnomer .. it sounds to the average reader (like me) that it simply means the dealer has to pack the item up again and stick it on the shelf. In fact, it seems to include much more than that, for instance now being an "open box" sale item that can't be offered at full price. And in this case, if drop-shipped, the dealer is stuck with it, not the manufacturer.
So, it is going to cost you $150 to return the item to him? Whereupon he will re-box it and sell it as new. I worked in the biz for several years selling hi-end, this is EXACTLY what will happen. Why you should be charged $150 for 15 minutes labor on his part is beyond me.The way we used to handle it was we'd loan the customer our demo unit on Fri. evening and allow them the weekend to try it out. They had to return it Monday in the same condition in which it was received. We put it back on display. There was NEVER any charge to do this and we had quite a few sales using this tactic.
You're being fucked without being kissed...
your take is pretty much different than 100% of the opinions previously offered!Thanks for the input. I found a dealer who will do the return (after a week) free of charge and he's also a Devore dealer. Just like yesterday, we had a pleasant telephone call. ;-)
I believe most specialty dealer will offer home trial. That is what demo unit for. Most of my customers actually want to keep the demo unit instead getting a new from the box unit for the same price because the demo unit has already been broken-in.However, because of some mail-order customers lacking the confident, most of them want a new from the box unit. I even received an reply saying that how can he certain that I am not boxing up the demo unit and send it to him. Those customers just don't understand that I don't actually want to sell the demo unit unless the model is phasing out.
I guess this dealer did not see this one as a demo. There are a couple local dealers who will allow take home and one, since I know him, will allow without taking payment. However, product selection is very limited.It was a new product and he had not bought any stock of this product. It was going to be drop-shipped. Maybe he wasn't planning to have a demo for this unit in stock? I don't know. He did say his restock fee was 20%. Whether this is for all products or just this instance, I do not know.
because it is a big benefit to them and helps their sales. I just talked with one over the phone and we might do a free trial in a few weeks.in this dealer's case, he wasn't willing.
(all of these exclude return shipping, of course)
I found another dealer who was willing to do it for free. It will likely benefit him with regards to a future sale to me. I believe that the onus simply isn't all on the consumer to buy their way into better deals or arrangements in the future. I believe it should be a mutual relationship from day one.
I see from the posts here that most consumers think it's fair and would be happy to pay a restock fee of 20%. I don't understand it and I guess that is why this thread was so interesting to me. The times where a consumer would say, "yes, I'll gladly pay that", are fascinating. I was actually convinced but now I'm not so sure again now that I found a dealer who would work with me.
This has happened to me twice. After some dissappointments from poor results in my home with gear that sounded good to me in the showroom, I am very reluctant to buy new gear without a 100% return option or in-house demo of the store's floor sample first.In two cases, while the dealers did not have any return policy at all (unless defective), I worked with the manufacturers (once direct, once through the dealer) to have the manufacturer offer a return policy. In both cases, the manufacturers promised the dealers that if I was unhappy with the sonic results of their products in my home, that I could return the items to the dealers and they would fully refund the dealers' cost. In one case, the manufacturer had a standing policy to do this for reluctant buyers, and in the other case, the manufacturer was trying to promote a new line of products. I kept one of the items (a pre-pro) and returned the other (a CDP).
Perhaps you could speak to the distributor and make similar arrangements through the dealer?
with a return option.As mentioned earlier, the distributor/importer for this company is top notch! This one is also a Devore dealer. Pretty cool!
Should be low risk...if it is an extension on the qualities of the earlier product, it should be excellent.
The 20% appears fair, particularly for such a low-priced item. It would be a whole lot of headache for a nominal fee otherwise, if you returned the item.
.....Like most thing in life but especially with audio purchases I think the success of the end result is commensurate with the amount of effort exerted in the first place.It seems to me you want the new release product. You also want to upgrade your current speakers. If so, cash up your wallet and phone the dealer and make an appointment to see him. I think if you put in the effort to drive and see the dealer you will be able to negotiate a much better deal for yourself by talking eyeball to eyeball with him. Also the dealer will be far more likely to be malleable & amenable to your ideas when you are there with the cash to do a deal.
If you don’t wish to make the effort then fuck the dealer off and buy the product from any source you can find for the least amount of money. (if you want some service, advice & backup etc use a dealer… if you want the rock bottom price then purchase from the cheapest online source you can find)
I’m not quite sure what being an economics major has to do with anything because I’ve never heard of one who knows how to make money. :o)
Good luck.
Smile
Sox
to see a dealer.when I mentioned econ thing...it was a lighthearted admission that I overanalyze things. that is true, they don't know how to make money!
.....… For me, putting in six hours effort for my audio system is a mere drop in the ocean.Over-analyse eh? I never would have guessed. It is a pity more around here can’t be a little more light-hearted.
I see you have found a more amenable dealer, well done & good luck.
Smile
Find another dealer. If he/she is this unwilling to help PRIOR to the sale, imagine how pathetic he/she will be after they get your $$$. Move on.
appears to be that 20% was perfectly fair. I'll go with that. Perhaps I will call him back tomorrow if I decide the warranty is worth the peace of mind and tell him I was wrong on the 10%. It's not an issue of his credo as a dealer. He was a nice fellow. After thinking about it, like Don T said, I think he just hung up because he thought we were done. Not sure how he could get bad vibes or run away from the deal. His restock fee is what it is. It's not like he told me he couldn't do business with me.Interesting comments! I asked for a reason and that was because I wasn't sure (and this is a message board). The results are overwhelmingly one-sided. Btw, I didn't ask because I think this is a big deal.
PS....would have never happened if he was nearby and I could just have a visit and listen to the thing (perhaps even bring in my earlier version and compare).
Plinko,This is kind of hard to answer because there are just so many variables.
First, I think it does not make much sense to hang up on a customer when you have an 80%+ chance of closing. But that is just me, maybe he does not need the business or is wealthy from a previous life - who knows. It's generally a bad idea to hang up on customers.
I assume this was a mail order deal& the product was new, so my preceeding responses are based on that assumption.
Once the product is opened and pluged in, it is technically used and a dealer should sell it as such. If you return it, then the restocking fee covers the delta between new and used price. If you were local, you would demo the unit to make your decision. However, when you buy over the phone - you pretty much accept the risk of not liking it and then selling it yourself IMHO.
Some dealers do offer a return on over the phone deals, and if its an option go with one that does. However, in all fairness I do not expect a return policy on mail order. (Unless it's wires or factory direct)
Generally, I do expect some level of a discount off retail in most cases and I would have taken that route as opposed to the restocking fee.
In Summary - I don't agree with the dealer hanging up on you, but think a restocking fee for a return is fairly reasonable. In retrospect, if the dealer hung up on you then he really did not need your business - find one who does and you both win!
I get the impression from the posts and your responses that the dealer was simply picking up way too many "bad vibes" from you. You mentioned your frugal econ-major math calculations. I think you simply overplayed your hand on this item relative to price and your (lack of) history with the dealer. One can still be very demanding in a polite tone of voice.The dealer was making his own math calculations about the value of this deal and quickly came to the conclusion that your demands were more trouble than they were worth. Who knows what his plans were to inventory this item or not, and you're restocking negotiations put you in the category of a customer that just wasn't worth much effort. I would fault the dealer for hanging up on you, but I do keep in mind that we have only heard one side of the story.
Sounds like you might be better off sticking with online purchases.
You asked him to order it. I don't feel he should be expected to take it back unless defective. Your position sounds unreasonable to me.
nt
I have an idea why he ran away from the sale.....it might be you.
indicates a troubled soul.
You actually took the time to scan my past posts!?!?! My point is made. You seem to be a penny-pinching, overly anal, hyper-excessive audiophile. Maybe the dealer had one too many of you that day. The thing was $750 but you act like it was $10k. Either buy it or not. Don't waste others time while you waffle back and forth in a never ending quest to make the right call. I'm pretty sure you still don't have this item in your hands and probably never will. Did you haggle over the restock fee the last time you bought a Happy Meal at McDonalds?
nt
z
nt
Audiocubes: $600, no return unless defective
Dealer: $750, $150 restock fee, I asked for $75 restock fee and did not get it.I can buy it from Audiocubes and if I don't like it, sell it for $450 or more on various websites ($600-$150) a week after I buy it...practically brand new.
Or, I can buy it for $750 and if I don't like it, return it to the dealer for $150. Total cash outlay is the same: $150.
But here is where it gets interesting:
By buying from the dealer and assuming I have little risk from Audiocubes and that I will keep the gear, I decided to spend $150 more on this piece of gear.
Makes no sense.
Makes even less sense for dealers to even carry this product if that is going to be their restock fee.
What makes even less sense:
is that under that situation where I am forced to buy from Audiocubes and I resell in the US, distributor and dealer now have to compete against an item out there that is $300 less than their asking price and virtually new. Instead, dealer believes 10% of restock fee is too risky. Distributor and one dealer are set back by one sale of this item with the possibility of others like me. Perhaps the distributor and the dealer should have another discussion.
And I'm not even getting into how much the dealer paid for this item...surely less than $600 since we know the Audiocubes price.
sorry folks. I'm frugal and I was an econ major.
You neglected to mention that if you buy it from Audio Cubes it is likely gray market with no U.S. warranty, this is not an apples to apples comparison. No offense intended but the more you plead your case the less sympathy you are generating here.
how often does a circuit board product break after working for 30 days?20% restock for for what distributor and dealers will likely tout as very few defectives (less than 1% is probably likely).
but regardless, who cares about the warranty? if I sell it at $450, I'll get emails from people who will want to buy it trust me.
it's only $600 with 30 day return if defective...I think I'm willing take the risk. I'm sure I've taken greater risk buying used gear. if your point was that it is a matter of differing perspectives, I agree. otherwise, remove yourself from the discussion.
s
nt
i'm glad we have forums like this do discuss such a thing. Bruce, I also appreciate your comments since you are a dealer.
Plinko:Let's face it. People use brick and mortar stores for demos and then go buy online. These people suck - and dealers have "radar" when they suspect this might be going on. You might not be one of these people, but as Bruce pointed out, by trying to haggle on a restocking fee, you might have given that impression.
Once a box is opened, it's not new product anymore, and the dealer can't get as much for it.
Now, as far as him hanging up on you? I don't know why some guys are rude in the sales biz. Most guys I have met are pretty nice. Some are arrogant. Few lack basic phone etiquette. Good customer/business relations is a two way street.
What's this guy gonna make on this sale? $200? How much time did he already spend with you? If this guy has this piece set up, ask him to leave you alone with it for 1/2 an hour. If you like it, buy it. If you later change your mind and it's not broken, don't take it back - sell it used. Or keep it for a different system.
No offense, but I don't expect dealers to spend a whole hell of a lot of time selling a $750 product. I'll drop $1500 on a HT receiver by reading up on it and taking a quick listen to the sonics of the thing. I'll drop $1000 on a universal player if the right people around here recommend it without too much fuss. If a guy is humming and hawing about a $15000 pair of speakers, I could see a saleguy trying to close the deal. By expecting him to put effort into trying to close a deal on a $750 unit??
Fuggedaboudit!
Just my thoughts...
spent a lot of time on the phone. we probably spent no more than five minutes. we both were pretty brief and to the point. I was at work and didn't have much time to talk anyways. I guess when he hung up on me, he probably thought the discussion was over and we had wrapped things up. in retrospect, likely my fault for not having better command of the conversation.
There are a couple items you did not say.
Is this a special order item?
Was item in stock?
Was item a demo which acounted for the good price?
It's a new, updated version of a product that just arrived at the distributor. It's likely no dealer has it in stock and this dealer had not even heard about the new version nor had he ordered any stock. The distributor explained to me that the product is shipping this week.So, no, it was not in this dealer's stock and it was not a demo. I'm not sure what constitutes a "special order". This was for the product in stock form.
Then you immediately launched into returning the product. If I was approached in that way I would logically conclude that you have every intention of returning the product, and now I am stuck with a used unit I can only sell at an even more reduced rate. My only salvation is going to be that restocking fee (I personally don't charge such fees, but I also don't sell anything to anyone sight unseen unless the customer really knows what they are doing).My qestions are:
1. What compelled you to automatically launch into discussing the return of the product if your intentions were pure in the first place?
2. If you were given such a sweet price up front, what makes you feel entitled to a reduced restocking charge?
Then he "launched" into returning the product?The two most important (and relevant) things I read in Plinko's post were that he was not getting any discount on the price; and that the dealer hung up on him when he asked about reducing the re-stocking percentage. Seems reasonable to me to inquire (entitlement?). Seems rather disrespectful to me to hang up.
"My qestions are:1. What compelled you to automatically launch into discussing the return of the product if your intentions were pure in the first place?
2. If you were given such a sweet price up front, what makes you feel entitled to a reduced restocking charge? "
my response:
1. Very few people had heard about product. He agreed to drop ship it from the distributor. He had not even heard that this product existed. I'm pretty confident that it is a worthwhile upgrade especially given that I can sell my current unit (it's the same product, only the newer version)...but it is still an unknown. I respect the distributor and am going on his word in making the decision to buy.
I figured 10% isn't a big deal. I guess it is. I figured he wants the sale and I want to buy so let him absorb more of the risk. He's the dealer after all. This sale is peanuts to him.
2. I never said it was a "sweet" or "great" price. It's the price this new product is going to be charged. Actually, it's $100 more than the previous version was priced at new. I didn't have a problem with this.
Now, I consider what does a dealer do for me in this case other than simply be a middleman in a business run out of his home. Not much. I can get it from Audio Cubes at $150 cheaper, no US warranty, and 30 day return if defective. But, no returns if unit works properly. Obviously for my situation, something to consider.
Btw, this dealer is a few hours away. I live in a city that has only a couple dealers and very limited two channel audio selection.
Only thing I can think of is that I don't have a relationship with him but honestly, other than my speakers, I don't plan on buying much of anything for a couple of years. So, I don't see much of a relationship being formed. I'm not looking for price of entry into a better deal.
The problem is that if you decide to return it, odds are the dealer cannot just return it to the distributor or manufacturer unless the product is defective. So in that scenario, the dealer will have bought one for demo stock whether he wanted it or not. I suppose 20% restocking charge isn't bad.Like I said, I personally would not take it back -- especially a special order -- unless the product was defective or you decided to upgrade.
very few people have heard this new product. I'm going on the word of the distributor who is a nice, honest guy.
"I didn't discuss price because the price was so low in the first place."My mistake, but the quote is from your post. That means your restocking fee was already reduced, too.
You also indicated you thought the dealer should share the risk. Did you share any risk when the dealer bought that item and put it into stock?
The dealer is probably being pretty nice about it. I mentioned I don't charge restocking fees. I also do not accept returns unless the product is defective or the customer upgrades through me.
is that it's only a $750 item. this isn't a $5,000 pair of speakers I am buying so I didn't discuss the price at all other than accepting it. this is what I meant by that.I did not discuss the restock fee until after he gave me this price. the two are separate issues in my book because one I know I we'll have to pay and the other is an unknown.
the dealer didn't share any risk to stock the store or incur any inventory time (a business cost that he doesn't incur here). it's being drop shipped to me. yes, he has to buy it though. in retrospect, he could have been creative and said he'll use that as his demo unit if I return it since I would have been the first one to buy it from him.
why should it be up to me to take on a piece of the dealer's risk of doing business and stocking inventory? owning a business requires investment risk. I don't have ownership in his business.
It appears from what you've posted that the dealer handled the situation badly but I've got to wonder where you were going with the returns policy question. There isn't enough information about the tonearm situation to make an informed response there either.
The shop I primarily worked for would have taken back any product without a restock charge for a good reason and even some bad ones. I recall accepting a return on some large speakers when the guy's wife, who had not been consulted, went ballistic. That does not mean that we encouraged returns. Our policy was strictly case by case. A new customer who starts out by asking about returns would have definitely put me on full alert.
We allowed home trials on most gear(the relatively standard Saturday afternoon until Tuesday morning, occasionally longer for established customers), allowed customers to bring their equipment in for comparisons and compatibility checks and encouraged extensive prepurchase auditioning at the shop. In short, we encouraged customers to be sure they wanted something before they bought it.
This dealer may have been having a bad day and clearly wasn't as diplomatic as he might have been, but you may be far from blameless here too. I reserve judgment unless you have a tape of the call to play for us.
There wasn't anything unpleasant other than his abrupt hang up.I respect his stance in that I know it's his right to do whatever he wants but I disagree with it.
I see that you question my report of what happened and that's fine. I was just looking for comments based on what I reported...which is really all I was looking for.
The dealer who did the tonearm work told me it was complete. Then I mailed him a check (he doesn't take credit cards). One week after the check cleared, he mailed the arm. It's as simple as that. Just as in the first situation, conversation was polite with me asking when he was going to mail the arm two days after my check cleared. He's a really nice guy but I don't think he understands his responsibility as a businessman (at least in my book).
Thanks for your input. I don't seem to have much luck with dealers.
I wasn't suggesting that you were being intentionally disingenuous. I just want all the facts including things like tone of voice. I've been an audio shop customer numerous times as well as having been the salesperson and my experiences have rarely been negative.
is understandable because you don't know me.I was polite with him. I stated my request for 10% very politely. I would add that he was polite until he hung up the phone.
When I talked to the one who did my tonearm work, I'm sure I did sound upset when three days after my check cleared, he told me it would ship on Monday or Tuesday (this was a Friday). I then said, okay, don't worry about it...just try to ship it soon. I like this guy. He's a really nice guy and quite knowledgeable. I just don't understand it though. Cashing check and then shipping a week later is something I would never do. I would never mention his name because I do think he's a nice guy...just lazy with the shipping.
I won't mention the other guy because it's not that big of a deal either. Nobody should judge him on this one instance.
what probably happened to that dealer is the case of the "radioshack rental". He probably has had one too many people buy stuff only to try it out and bring it back. I bet if you setup a relationship with him, more then just on the phone, or if you purchased from him with his conditions you could probably get the restocking fee reduced or removed on future purchases.On the other hand, the fact that he hung up on you is just not professional. However, having been in the business I know how hard it is to keep you cool when you have been burned one too many time in one month. So it is up to you whether you want to let this one go or be upset. I would let it go, but that is just me.
20% return fee is reasonable, maybe even low. If he's ethical, he'd have to sell it as a used unit. I won't pay 80% of retail for a used unit that's still in production.As to hanging up without seeing if you had more questions, that's poor training or a bad day. He shouldn't have done it.
I'm not sure.
and depend on the commodity and margin the product yields.
?
price structure more than anything else. A lot of people won't even take returns of electronic goods after they have been installed and used for even a short while. That is right in there with buying used stuff off of ebay.
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